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Narration of Malik al Dar, evidence for Tawassul by the living & not by the Prophet after his death

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  • Narration of Malik al Dar, evidence for Tawassul by the living & not by the Prophet after his death

    I wrote this couple months ago, and posted it in my blog.

    (Note: The article has been replaced with the update version)



    Narration of Malik al Dar, evidence for Tawassul by the living & not by the Prophet after his death


    Bismillah, wal-hamdulillah was-salatu was-salamu ‘ala Rasulillah.

    The incident mentioned in the narration of Malik al Dar happened during the Khilafah of Umar radiyallahu anhu, during the time of drought, and so did the incident of Umar bin al Khattab’s (radiyallahu anhu) tawassul through the Prophet’s (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) uncle, Al Abbas radiyallahu anhu.
    I have come across many discussions in regards to this narration, and all of them were concentrating on the “authenticity” of the narration, discussing its chain.
    But I have not come across any discussions on the text of the hadith itself, the story,
    except for some quotes here and there from some current shaikhs, sited in ahl alhadith forum, and those 2 or 3 points mentioned by those shaikhs led me to research the story of the hadith in classical books of past scholars, and I have found it very interesting and informative.
    The things I discovered and read show a totally different understanding of the hadith, than what is understood by many Muslims today including some scholars, it only needs for one to go deep and see where the scholars of the past quoted the narration, in which chapter and what they said before quoting it to understand the real meaning of the hadith.
    I will go straight to the points that I have regarding the text and story of this narration of Malik al Dar. After that I will mention some logical arguments in reply to the ones who use this narration as evidence for tawasul that is “asking the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) to make duaa to Allah for us AFTER HIS DEATH.


    The text of the narration:

    It is related from Malik al-Dar, `Umar’s treasurer, that the people suffered a drought during the time of `Umar (his khilafah), whereupon a man came to the grave of the Prophet and said: “O Messenger of Allah, ask for rain for your Community, for verily they have but perished,” after which the Prophet appeared to him in a dream and told him: “Go to `Umar and give him my greeting, then tell him that they will be watered. Tell him: You must be clever, you must be clever!” The man went and told `Umar. The latter said: “O my Lord, I spare no effort except in what escapes my power!”"



    Scholars’ understanding of this narration

    1. Hafidh Ibn Hajar al Asqalani -rahimahu Allah- in his books “Fath al Bari” (vol 3 pg. 441):
    He sites it in chapter “The people asking the Imam to do istisqa’ in times of drought,” in the chapter heading section, in which he quotes ahadith that have relevance to the chapter heading, and that connect it with hadiths that come under that chapter.
    Amongst those narrations he mentions the narration of Malik al Dar, and he only quotes part of the narration, he stops at “go to Umar”. He used this as evidence that people ask the imam to do istisqa (ask for rain) for them in times of drought.
    He didn’t mention the rest of the hadith because it has nothing to do with the chapter heading, he only quoted what he believed fits the chapters title, for he says at the end of the section, after mentioning this narration:

    “From all of this appears the relevance of the chapter heading to the origin of this story“
    so, al Hafidh Ibn Hajar rahimahu Allah understood from this hadith that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was directing the man to go ask the Imam, during that time (Umar radiyallahu anhu), to do istisqa’ for them.



    2. Hafidh Ibn Kathir -rahimahu Allah-:

    He sites it in his book “al Bidayah wan Nihaya ” (vol7 pg.104 ),in which he mentions some narrations, right before he mentions Malik ad Dar’s narration, which explain the meaning of the narration.
    The narrations before it are by Sayf Ibn Umar, and in them is the mentioning of Umar radiyallahu anhu, after hearing about the man’s dream (who is said to be Bilal al Harith), asking the people on the minbar if they have seen anything bad from him, and then he tells them about the dream that Bilal saw, so they told him:
    “Bilal has spoken the truth, so make istiqatha (seek or ask for help) to Allah, then the Muslims”. So then Umar radiyallahu anhu does istisqa’ through al Abbas radiyallahu anhu.
    In the second narration, they said “he found you slow in doing istisqa’, so do istisqa’ for us “, so he did.
    (Note: these 2 narrations could be weak, but the point is that al Hafidh Ibn Kathir rahimahu Allah mentioned them right before the narration of Malik, showing what it is about, which shows what he understood it to mean, same as what Ibn Hajar (r A) understood from it).

    3. Ala’ ad Deen Ali al Mutaqi al Hindi al Burhan Furi (d. 975) in his book “Kanz al Ummal“:He sites it in chapter of (salat al Istisqa’ - prayer for rain), and what the man did at the grave of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was asking for dua, not istisqa' prayer, and salat al Istisqa' was done by Umar radiyallahu anhu, when he made tawassul through Al Abbas radiyallahu anhu, thus both narrations are connected to each other, as shown in the previous points.

    Conclusion: That the story of Malik al Dar’s narration is connected to the hadith about Umar’s tawassul through al Abbas, all leading to doing istisqa’ through the living, and not through the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam after his death.





    Narrations with an addition

    There are narrations of the same story, with an addition, if they are authentic (the authenticiy is not known to me so far), they would give very strong support to the understanding of the above scholars.
    and it also shows what the scholars who sited the narrations believed the narration to mean.- Imam Ibn Abd al Bar al Maliki in his book “al Isti’ab fi ma’rifat al As-hab”:

    The people suffered a drought during the time of ‘Umar (his khilafah), whereupon a man came to the grave of the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) and said:”O Messenger of Allah, ask for rain for your Community, for verily they have but perished,” after which the Prophet appeared to him in a dream and told him: “Go to ‘Umar and tell him to do istisqa’ (ask Allah for rain) for the people, and that they will be watered. And tell him: You must be clever, you must be clever!” So, the man went and told ‘Umar, and Umar cried and said “O my Lord, I spare no effort except in what escapes my power!”




    - Ahmad Abdullah at Tabari (d. 694 ) in his book “ar Riyadh an Nadhirah fi Manaqib al Ashara”:

    Anas bin Malik narrated:
    The people suffered drought during Umar’s time, whereupon a man came to teh grave of the Prophet (Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam), and said: “O Messenger of Allah, ask for rain for your community, for verily they have but perished,”, he said so the Messenger of Allah came to him in a dream and told him “Go to ‘Umar then tell him to do istisqa’ (ask Allah for rain) for the people, and that they will be watered. And tell him: You must be clever, you must be clever!” So, the man went and told ‘Umar, and Umar cried and said “O my Lord, I spare no effort except in what escapes my power!”. narrated by al Baghawi in al fada’il and Abu Umar.



    Logical Arguments
    1. The ones who use this hadith for this type of tawassul say that Umar radiyallahu anhu did not rebuke the man who did istisqa’ at the grave.
      Reply: There is no clear evidence in the hadith indicating that the man told Umar of him going to the grave, but clearly he did tell him of the dream, telling him the message of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.
      so to say that he told him about his istisqa’ at the grave is an assumption, and we can’t use assumptions as evidence.
    2. It didn’t rain until after Umar radiyallahu anhu made istisqa’ by al Abbas radiyallahu anhum.
      If the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was capable or had permission to do du’aa to Allah after his death, when asked by others, then it would have rained immediately after the man asked the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam at his grave, but it didn’t until after Umar’s istisqa’ through the duaa of Al Abbas radiyallahu anhu.
      This shows that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, was guiding the man to ask the Umar to do istisqa’ and not him, hinting to Umar by saying to him “be clever!“, and when Umar did istisqa’ by al Abbas (radiyallahu anhuma) it immediately rained..
    3. If going to the grave of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to ask him to make duaa to Allah was permissable, Umar radiyallahu anhu would have done that when wanting to do istisqa’ instead of doing it through the uncle of the Messenger sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, who was alive, and Umar’s (r.a) saying “we used to make tawassul through your Prophet’s duaa, and now we do tawassul through the uncle of your Prophet…”, indicates that they don’t make tawassul through the Prophet’s (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) duaa after his death, and only when he was alive, or else why would he say “we used to”?
    4. If what the man did (wether it was Bilal ibn al Harith radiyallahu anhu or someone else) was correct\permissable, then:
      • Why didn’t any of the scholars I quoted mention the narration in a chapter titled (tawassul by the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) or some title indicating that the narration is EVIDENCE for permissibility of that type of tawassul?
        Instead they title the chapter in which the narration is in (salat al istisqa’- the man didn’t do salat al Istisqa’ at the grave, only did duaa, while Umar rA did salat al istisqa) , (The people asking the Imam to do istisqa’ in times of drought), wouldn’t it be more important to point out the permissibility of tawassul through the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam after his death, which is stronger than doing tawassul through the righteous and ahl al bayt?
        Instead they ignored that part , showing no importance to it at all.
        So if they believed that the narration indicates the permissibility of such a tawassul, why didn’t they at least hint to it by the chapter title or a comment like they did to show that it meant to do intercession through saliheen and ahl al bayt, and ask the imam to do istisqa?

      • What was the point of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam telling Umar r.A “be clever“?
      • If the man told Umar that he went to the grave, and then told him about the dream, why would Umar do salat al istisqa’ when the man already asked the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to do istisqa’ and he told him that they will be watered?
        Isn’t the istisqa’ of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam sufficient?

      • If the action of the man was correct (to ask the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to do istisqa), and the Prophet S.A.W answered his request, then why didn’t it rain immediately after the dream, and instead came down immediately after al Abbas’s (radiyallahu anhu) duaa?
        Who is higher in status, the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam or his uncle?
    Last edited by Um Abdullah M.; 04-17-2008, 07:25 AM. Reason: Replaced it with the updated version
    .


  • #2
    Jazakillahu khairan. For english speakers it is more important to discuss the text of the narrations (as you did) than do dicsuss the authenticity of the narration.
    Always remember without total fluency in the Arabic language, you can only attain basic Islamic knowledge ... but basic knowledge is the path to advanced knowledge
    haitham_hamdan@hotmail.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Assalamu Alaykum

      Some sufi has discussed this topic on his site. He actually has a whole website up defending tawassul through the prophet and dead people. For the Malik Darr narration he said this...


      This tradition establishes the following principles:

      1. Visiting graves with the intention of mediation and seeking help.

      2. It is valid to visit the grave of a pious dead person during the period of one’s trials and tribulations to seek help from him because if this act were invalid, ‘Umar would surely have forbidden that person to do so.

      3. The Prophet’s appearance in the dream of the person who visited his grave and to give him good tidings, argues in favour of the fact that it is quite valid to seek help from non-Allah and the dead because if it were invalid, it would have been impossible for the Prophet not to have forbidden that person to do so.

      4. Validation of the mode of address “O Messenger of Allah (yā rasūl Allah)” even after his death.

      5. Call for help and the act of intermediation dates back to the early ages.

      6. The holy personality of the Prophet is a fountain of guidance even after his death.

      7. The head of the state is responsible for administrative matters. The Holy Prophet , in spite of being the chief of prophets, did not break the state channel and, as a visible demonstration of his sense of discipline, he commanded the man visiting his grave to see the head of the state.

      8. The man visiting the grave implored his help through the instrumentality of the Ummah. This shows the Prophet’s immeasurable love for the Community of his followers.

      9. Justification for making the Ummah as a source for seeking his help.

      10. Justification for making non-prophet a means of help in the presence of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم

      11. Anyone who strengthens his link with the Holy Prophet is rewarded by his sight and is showered with his blessings.

      12. The Holy Prophet , even after his death, is aware of the weakness of his Ummah or anyone of its rulers and he issues different commands for removing these flaws.

      13. To seek guidance from Allah’s favourites.

      14. The acknowledgement of the Prophet’s commands by the Companions after his death as just and truthful.

      15. Imposition of commands received in dreams on others.

      16. When intermediation was discussed in the presence of ‘Umar bin al-Khattāb, he did not forbid it; rather he cried and responded to it acknowledging it as valid.

      17. ‘Umar bin al-Khattāb’s love for the Holy Prophet that he incessantly cried as someone mentioned the Holy Prophet




      How do we refute this?

      Jazakum Allah khayr
      www.call-to-monotheism.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Bassam Zawadi View Post
        Assalamu Alaykum
        wa alaykum assalam


        1. Visiting graves with the intention of mediation and seeking help.
        If you read my first post well, you will realize that the point of the dream is to show the man that the correct thing for him to do was to go to the amir and ask him to do istisqa' to Allah, not to go to the Prophet Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam in his grave.
        so the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was correcting the man.
        so it is not correct to visit the graves for intention of mediation and seeking help.
        the whole post I wrote refutes this claim.


        2. It is valid to visit the grave of a pious dead person during the period of ones trials and tribulations to seek help from him because if this act were invalid, Umar would surely have forbidden that person to do so.
        This was answered in my first post, point #1
        in which I wrote:
        ((1_ The ones who use this hadith for this type of tawassul say that Umar radiyallahu anhu did not rebuke the man who did istisqa at the grave.
        Reply: There is no clear evidence in the hadith that the man told Umar of him going to the grave, but clearly he did tell him of the dream, telling him the message of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.
        so to say that he told him about his istisqa at the grave is an assumption, and we cant use assumptions as evidence.))


        3. The Prophets appearance in the dream of the person who visited his grave and to give him good tidings, argues in favour of the fact that it is quite valid to seek help from non-Allah and the dead because if it were invalid, it would have been impossible for the Prophet not to have forbidden that person to do so.
        The Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam came to the man in the dream and told him to go to Umar, showing him that the correct thing for him to do in situation like this is to go to the amir and have him do istisqa', not to go to him (the Prophet) in his grave, and told him to give glad tidings to Umar after telling him what to do.


        4. Validation of the mode of address O Messenger of Allah (yā rasūl Allah) even after his death.
        This is also based on their false understanding of the hadith, so the first post refutes it also.


        5. Call for help and the act of intermediation dates back to the early ages.
        same as above, refuted by the whole first post.


        16. When intermediation was discussed in the presence of Umar bin al-Khattāb, he did not forbid it; rather he cried and responded to it acknowledging it as valid.
        This was also answered in point number one.
        and he cried because of what was said to him in dream, and there was no mention of the issue of the grave in the dream.
        .

        Comment


        • #5
          authencity

          salaam
          sister i can please tell me if these narrations are authentic


          it is mentioned in musannaf ibn abi shaybah with a saheeh sanad as mentioned in fathul baari that a sahaabi named bilal bin aharith radhiyallahu anhu during the drought of the time of umar radhiyallaahu anhu and addressed rasulullaah sallallaahu alayhi wasallam " Oh Messenger of Allah ask on behalf of your ummah to be granted rain for verily they have come close to perishing." He saw Rasulullaah salallaahu alayhi wasallam in his dream who instructed him " go to Umar and convey My salaam to him and tell him that verily the drought will break."
          a similar haeeth is narrated in bayhaqi :-
          In the Ramadah Year, a companion went to the grave of the Messenger of

          Allah and said: O Messenger of Allah, ask Allah to give rain to your Ummah; they are close to perish.(Al-Bayhaqiyy and Ibn Kathir in his Tarikh said that this Hadith is sahih. This occurring from Ibn Kathir )




          {And if only they came to you after they had oppressed themselves(by sin)nisa 64} Ibn katheer mentions a famous stoy narrated by atbi rahimahullaah and in bahrul muheet and qurtubi it is stated that it is
          related by sayyidina Ali karramallaahu wajhahu that a bedioun came amongst us three days after we buried Rasulullaah salallaahu alayhi wasallam threw himself on the maqbarah of Sayyiduna Rasulullaah salallaahu alayhi wassalam , flung the sand over his head and read " oh the best being buried in the sand whom i highly respect-the land and its surroundings are blessed because of His blessedness. may my being be sacrificed on the grave in which you dwell- in it is the embodiment of chastity , kindnessand honour" He thereafter adressing Rasulullah salallaahu alayhi wassalam said " on Messenger of Allah, we have heard your statements and you have preserved from ALLAH and we have preserved from you and amongst the things that ALLAH HAS REVEALED
          { وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُوۤاْ أَنفُسَهُمْ } الآية، {And if only they came to you after they had oppressed themselves(by sin)} so i have opressed myself and i have come to you seeking HIS forgiveness and requesting you to ask for forgivenes on my behalf" sayyidina Ali mentions we had an announcement from the grave " He has forgiven you(ALLAH)."


          and if u give any links please make sure that they r in english as i dont know arabic

          Comment


          • #6
            sorry i cudnt edit the post so im re-posting with some changes please give there authencity
            salaam
            sister can u please tell me if these narrations are authentic


            it is mentioned in musannaf ibn abi shaybah with a saheeh sanad as mentioned in fathul baari that a sahaabi named bilal bin aharith radhiyallahu anhu during the drought of the time of umar radhiyallaahu anhu and addressed rasulullaah sallallaahu alayhi wasallam " Oh Messenger of Allah ask on behalf of your ummah to be granted rain for verily they have come close to perishing." He saw Rasulullaah salallaahu alayhi wasallam in his dream who instructed him " go to Umar and convey My salaam to him and tell him that verily the drought will break."
            a similar haeeth is narrated in bayhaqi :-
            In the Ramadah Year, a companion went to the grave of the Messenger of

            Allah and said: O Messenger of Allah, ask Allah to give rain to your Ummah; they are close to perish.(Al-Bayhaqiyy and Ibn Kathir in his Tarikh said that this Hadith is sahih. This occurring from Ibn Kathir )




            {And if only they came to you after they had oppressed themselves(by sin)nisa 64} Ibn katheer mentions a famous stoy narrated by atbi rahimahullaah and in bahrul muheet and qurtubi it is stated that it is
            related by sayyidina Ali karramallaahu wajhahu that a bedioun came amongst us three days after we buried Rasulullaah salallaahu alayhi wasallam threw himself on the maqbarah of Sayyiduna Rasulullaah salallaahu alayhi wassalam , flung the sand over his head and read " oh the best being buried in the sand whom i highly respect-the land and its surroundings are blessed because of His blessedness. may my being be sacrificed on the grave in which you dwell- in it is the embodiment of chastity , kindnessand honour" He thereafter adressing Rasulullah salallaahu alayhi wassalam said " on Messenger of Allah, we have heard your statements and you have preserved from ALLAH and we have preserved from you and amongst the things that ALLAH HAS REVEALED
            { وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُوۤاْ أَنفُسَهُمْ } الآية، {And if only they came to you after they had oppressed themselves(by sin)} so i have opressed myself and i have come to you seeking HIS forgiveness and requesting you to ask for forgivenes on my behalf" sayyidina Ali mentions we had an announcement from the grave " He has forgiven you(ALLAH)."

            It is related that:
            One night, the Prophet of Allah - may Allah bless him and grant him peace - was in his house and was heard to proclaim `I am here!' three times and `You have been granted help' also three times. Umm al- Mu'minin, Maymunah - may Allah be well pleased with her - asked the Prophet - may Allah bless him and grant him peace - whom he had been talking to since there was no one present. He - may Allah bless him and grant him peace - replied, `I was talking to a person called Rajiz from the tribe of Bani Ka'ab. He asked for help from me against the Quraysh.' Umm al- Mu'minin, Maymunah - may Allah be well pleased with her - said that when she finished Fajr prayer the next morning, she heard Rajiz calling out in the streets of Madina: "Ya Rasul Allah! Help us and call the servants of Allah to help us."

            Shaykh Yusuf al-Nabhani, Allah have mercy on him, cites two hadiths in this respect with their full wording in the chapter of the Prophet's `ilm al-ghayb in his encyclopedia of the Prophetic miracles, Hujjat Allah `ala al-Alamin bi-Mu`jizat Sayyid al-Mursalin (p. 493):

            <<Al-T.abarn narrates that Maymna the Mother of the believers said: "The Messenger of Allh, upon him blessings and peace, was sleeping with me one night and he got up to make ablution and pray. I heard him say during his ablution in the dead of night:

            "Labbayka labbayka labbayka"

            [like this,] three times then:

            "nus.irta nus.irta nus.irta"

            [like this,] three times. When he came out, I asked him, "Messenger of Allh, I heard you say, during your ablution, 'In your service!' three times, and 'To your defense!' three times, as if you were addressing someone. Was there someone with you?" He replied: "This was the poetry champion (rjiz) of the Ban Ka`b" one of the sub-tribes of the Khuz`a "invoking my aid (yastas.rikhun)(1) and asserting that the Quraysh had helped the Ban Bakr against them." The latter had allied themselves with the Quraysh the day of the H.udaybiya truce while the Khuz`a had allied themselves with the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, and he became duty-bound to defend them. The support of the Quraysh for the Ban Bakr against the Khuz`a was therefore a violation of their truce with the Messenger of Allh, upon him blessings and peace. This incident was the catalyst for the conquest of Makka and, immediately afterwards, he prepared himself to enter it and conquered it.(2)

            <<Ibn Ish.q said as found in Ibn Hishm's Sra that when the Ban Bakr and the Quraysh defeated the Khuz`a and looted them, violating the terms of the solemn pact to which they had agreed with the Messenger of Allh, upon him blessings and peace, by warring with the Khuz`a, his formal allies, `Amr ibn Slim al-Khuz`, one of the Ban Ka`b there, rode out until he came to see the Messenger of Allh, upon him blessings and peace, in al-Madna. His coming gave the impetus for the conquest of Makka.(3) He stood before the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, as the latter sat in the Mosque, in full sight of the people, and declaimed:



            Lord! I am appealing to Muh.ammad
            by the time-honored pact of both our fathers.(4)

            You(5) were a father and we a son;
            then we entered Islm and remained loyal.

            Help us, and may Allh help you always!
            Summon His servants, they shall come in arms,

            Among them, the Prophet, mobilized--
            if he is wronged, his face glowers.

            In his legion he marches, a sea, foaming.
            Quraysh broke its treaty with you!

            They violated the truce they pledged you,
            made me as good as dead and buried!(6)

            They claimed I could not call on anyone
            although they are meaner and less by far!

            They snared us at Watr during our vigils
            and slew us as we bowed and prostrated.(7)


            <<The Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, said: "In your defense, `Amr ibn Slim!" Then the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, glimpsed a cloud in the sky and said: "Truly, this cloud is initiating the victory of the Ban Ka`b." Then he geared himself for the conquest of Makka and conquered it.(8)>>

            NOTES

            (1) Ibn H.ajar in al-Is.ba (4:631) mentions another wording, "invoking my mercy (yastarh.imun)."

            (2) Narrated from Maymna by al-T.abarn in the Kabr (23:433-434 1052) and S.aghr (2:167-169 968) and al-Taym in his Dal'il (p. 73-74 59), both with a slightly weak chain because of Yah.y ibn Sulaymn ibn Nad.la al-Madn cf. al-Haytham (6:163-164) although Ibn `Ad in al-Kmil (7:255 2156) said "he narrated reports from Mlik and the Madinans, most of which are valid." Ibn H.ibbn included him in his Thiqt (9:269). Cf. Is.ba (4:631), Fath. (7:520), Sra H.alabiyya (3:5), and Dah.ln's Sra (2:76-77).

            (3) Cf. Ibn `Umar's narration in Ibn H.ibbn (13:140 5996) and Ibn H. ajar, Talkhs. al-H.abr (4:131 1929).

            (4) Allhumma inn nshidu Muh.ammad / h.ilfa abn wa'abhi al- atlad.

            (5) I.e. the Ban Hshim and Ban `Abd al-Mut.t.alib with a rhetorical trope of apostrope (iltift).

            (6) Wa-ja`al l f kad'in ras.ad, misspelt in al-Nabhn as wa- ja`al l fka d'in ras.ad.

            (7) Ibn `Askir (43:519) narrated from Ibn al-Musayyab: "There is not one homebound woman of Ban Khuz`a except she memorized the verses of `Amr ibn Slim al-Khuz` to the Messenger of Allh, upon him blessings and peace."

            (8) Narrated
            (i) through al-Zuhr from `Urwa ibn al-Zubayr from the Companion al-Miswar ibn Makhrama and the Tbi` Marwn ibn al-H.akam by Ibn Ish.q in the Maghz (cf. Ibn Hishm 5:48, al-T.ah.w, Sharh. Ma`n al-Athr 3:315-316, Is.ba 4:630-631, and Bidya 4:278), al-T. abar in his Trkh (2:152-153), Ibn `Askir in his Trkh (43:519- 520), and al-Bayhaq in the Sunan al-Kubr (9:233) and Dal'il;
            (ii) from Ibn `Abbs by Ibn Mandah and Ab Nu`aym in Ma`rifat al-S.ah.ba as well as Ibn al-Athr in Usd al-Ghba (4:225-226 cf. Is.ba 5:285);
            (iii) from Ab Hurayra by al-Bazzr and al-Bayhaq (cf. Bidya 4:281) with a fair chain according to Ibn H.ajar in the Fath. (7:520) and al- Haytham (6:162);
            (iv) from the Tbi`n Ab Salama and Yah.y ibn `Abd al-Rah.mn ibn H.t.ib by Ibn Ab Shayba (7:398 36900) and
            (v) also mursal from `Ikrima by Ibn Ab Shayba (7:400-401 36902) and al-T.ah. w in Sharh. Ma`n al-Athr (3:291, 3 :312-313). The bracketed segment is narrated only through al-Zuhr. Cf. Iktif' (2:215); al- Fkih, Akhbr Makka (5:103); Ist`b (3:1175-1176); Ibn al-Qayyim, Zd (3:348-349); Sra H.alabiyya (3:5-6); Ibn Taymiyya, al-S.rim al- Masll (2:214); Is.ba (1:122), Fath. (7:519-520), Talkhs. al-H.abr (4:131-132 1929), Ibn al-Athr, Kmil (2:162), al-Suhayl, Rawd. (2: 265), and Kanz (14422, 30166, 30195, 30204). Al-Watr or Watn is a Khuz`a watering-point in the lowest area of Makka cf. Yqt and al- Nihya. Ibn Ish.q and al-Wqid said that `Amr was accompanied by forty riders of the Ban Khuz`a when he arrived in Madna. Another report by al-Brd with a weak munqat.i` chain attributes those verses to Budayl ibn Kulthm ibn Slim al-Khuz` cf. Is.ba (1:274).


            and if u give any links please make sure that they r in english as i dont know arabic

            Comment


            • #7
              ya ukhti, i need for you to do something of the sort for these riwayaat, if possible

              these are it


              1. Another evidence is narrated by Ibn Majah with a sound chain of transmission on the authority of Abu Sa`id al-Khudri, may God be pleased with him. He relates that the Messenger of God said: "The one who leaves his house for prayer and then says: "O God, I ask thee by the right of those who ask you and I beseech thee by the right of those who walk this path unto thee, as my going forth bespeak not of levity, pride nor vainglory, nor is done for the sake of repute. I have gone forth solely in the warding off your anger and for the seeking of your pleasure. I ask you, therefore, to grant me refuge from hell fire and to forgive me my sins. For no one forgive sins but yourself." God will look kindly upon him and seventy thousand angels will seek his forgiveness

              2. Among further evidences for the permissibility of tawassul is the occasion when the Prophet said on the authority of Anas ibn Malik: "O God, grant forgiveness to my mother, Fatima Bint Asad, and make vast for her the place of her going inft1 by right of thy Prophet and that of those prophets who came before me" and so on until the end of the hadith. Al-Tabarani relates it in al-Kabir. Ibn Hibban and al-Hakim declare it sound. The "Fatima" referred to here is the mother of Sayyidina `Ali who raised the Prophet. Ibn Abi Shayba on the authority of Jabir relates a similar narrative. Similar also is what Ibn `Abd Al-Barr on the authority of Ibn `Abbas and Abu Nu`aym in his Hilya on the authority of Anas Ibn Malik relate, as al-Hafiz al-Suyuti mentioned in the Jami` al-Kabir

              3. al-Tirmidhi, al-Nasa'i, al-Bayhaqi, and al-Tabarani relate with a sound chain that a blind man came to the Prophet and said: "Pray to God that He relieve me." The Prophet said: "If you wish I will pray, and if you wish you may be patient, and that is better." Then he prayed for him and commanded him to make ablution and do his ablution well and utter this prayer: "O God, I ask you and I address You by Your Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy. O Muhammad, I address by you my Lord in my need. O God, accept his intercession on my behalf." Then he returned and gained his sight. Al-Bukhari produces this hadith in his Ta'rikh (Biographical History), Ibn Majah, and al-Hakim in al-Mustadrak with a sound chain of transmission. Suyuti in al-Jami' al-Kabir and al-Saghir mentioned it also. It is therefore established that the Prophet commanded the blind man to invoke him and implore God by means of him to accomplish his need

              4. Another evidence for tawassul is what al-Bayhaqi and Ibn Abi Shayba relate with a sound chain of transmission that a drought afflicted the people during the caliphate of `Umar, may God be pleased with him, and Bilal Ibn al-Harth came to the grave of the Prophet and said: "O Messenger of God, ask for rain for your community, for they are being destroyed." Then the Messenger of God came to him in a dream and said to him that they would have water. This evidence of ours is not in the vision of the Prophet. Even if his vision is true, the legal rulings of the Shari`a are not established by dreams, where there is room to cast doubt on the words or perspicuity of the dreamer. The evidence we are citing lies in the action of one of the Companions while that Companion was awake. That is Bilal Ibn al-Harth who came to the grave of the Prophet and called on him and made a request of him to provide his community with rain

              I don't think these are the riwayaat connected with maalik darr.

              please if you can find what scholars have said not only in the grading, but as wellthe sharh of it, and if you wish to translate it, that'll be good. But if not please post it here in arabic, and i'll worry about it bi ithnillah. I have my own sharh of it only in refutation of kabbani but i would like a bonifide sharh and then i use myself as a ziyada

              asalamu alaikum
              ابو نعيمة علي البريكي


              "I have debated with the Ash'aris
              and it has become clear to me that they believe that Allah does not exist"


              May Allah hasten the Muslims back to the path
              that granted victory to them before.


              http://islamthought.wordpress.com/

              http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/

              Comment


              • #8
                bro Ali Boriqee
                actually I am working on a project which is refuting shubuhat of sufis regarding tawassul.
                so I will be writing something in regards to those narrations insha Allah.

                As for the the 4th one, it is the narration of Malik al Dar, and my article that I wrote regarding it needs to be updated, because I have a few other points to add.
                .

                Comment


                • #9
                  As-salaam 'alaykum

                  Jazakillaah khayr, that would be very beneficial. To my brother Boriqee, the four ahaadeeth you mentioned, I am pretty sure number 2 is discussed briefly by shaykh al albaanee in tawassul anwaa'uhu wa ahkaamuhu, as for number 3, then it is definately discussed in their, it's under the heading "doubts and their removal", it's doubt number two. This can be accessed in english from abdur rahman's now almost infamous website ( When the book publishers catch this guy he is dead lol, may Allah reward him), however it was translated by brother Abu Talhah Daawood Burbank, and although he has with him enough knowledge of arabic to translate, these books require experience in the names of the narrators mentioned as well, and maybe due to lack of knowledge he translated some of the names of the narrators wrong apparently, like he translated the name "uthman ibn hunaif" as "uthman ibn haneef", this is what the soofees allege on their tawassul websites anyway, they say it should be hunaif, wallaahu a'lam, maybe some knowledgable brothers can clarify for us. Obviously in a book without tashkeel it would appear as though it's haneef hence why he translated it like that ( well to me it would anyway, dont know about anyone else).

                  Anyway getting back to the point, Shaykh Al albaanee completely refutes them on hadeeth 3 that you mentioned, and goes in quiet a lot of detail and discusses all the zawaa'id as well. The discussion covers many pages of that book if I remember correctly.


                  Barakallahu feeh wasalam 'alaykum

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    jazakallahu khair
                    ابو نعيمة علي البريكي


                    "I have debated with the Ash'aris
                    and it has become clear to me that they believe that Allah does not exist"


                    May Allah hasten the Muslims back to the path
                    that granted victory to them before.


                    http://islamthought.wordpress.com/

                    http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      can any plese reply to my post salam ive been trying to find out whether they are authentic or not salam

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Assalamualaykkum ,

                        What is the credibility of the report of Malik daar as long as the persom who had visited the grave is majhool ???
                        The whole argument is based on his action and dream .

                        rgds

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          the point of the the post is to show that even if we knew who the person was, and he comes out to be a sahabi or tabi'ee, it would still not be evidence for their deviant type of tawassul.
                          also, it is a reply to their claim that the scholars who authenticated the hadith accept such a tawassul and consider it permissable.
                          .

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The article has been update.

                            I removed the mistakes that were in the article + added some logical arguments.


                            If you saved it in ur computer or removable disk, please replace it with this updated version.


                            Attached is word document with the update version.
                            Attached Files
                            Last edited by Um Abdullah M.; 04-17-2008, 07:29 AM.
                            .

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Logical Arguments

                              1. The ones who use this hadith for this type of tawassul say that Umar radiyallahu anhu did not rebuke the man who did istisqa at the grave.
                              Reply: There is no clear evidence in the hadith indicating that the man told Umar of him going to the grave, but clearly he did tell him of the dream, telling him the message of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.
                              so to say that he told him about his istisqa at the grave is an assumption, and we cant use assumptions as evidence.

                              REPLY : The man came with a dream to Umar radiallahu anhu and Umar Radiallahu accepted the dream by saying O my Lord, I spare no effort except in what escapes my power!. Which means the man who saw the dream was truthful in the sight of Umar radiallahu anhu otherwise he would have not accepted the dream !

                              Secondly the narration which you have mentioned says ! So, the man went and told Umar, which shows the man told everything.

                              Thirdly: the man who saw the dream and did visited the grave was same and he was truthful according to Umar Radiallahu anhu. So we can accept this has a genuine reason to visit our Prophets grave Alhumdollilahe.

                              2. It didnt rain until after Umar radiyallahu anhu made istisqa by al Abbas radiyallahu anhum.
                              If the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was capable or had permission to do duaa to Allah after his death, when asked by others, then it would have rained immediately after the man asked the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam at his grave, but it didnt until after Umars istisqa through the duaa of Al Abbas radiyallahu anhu.
                              This shows that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, was guiding the man to ask the Umar to do istisqa and not him, hinting to Umar by saying to him be clever!, and when Umar did istisqa by al Abbas (radiyallahu anhuma) it immediately rained..

                              REPLY: Your statement This shows that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, was guiding the man to ask the Umar to do istisqa and not him clearly shows that you have accepted that the Prophet salallhualaihewasallam was guiding some one after his death Alhumdolillahe.
                              Regarding your argument that If the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was capable or had permission to do duaa to Allah after his death, when asked by others, then it would have rained immediately Have you not seen this hadees sharif:

                              Majmua al zuwaid Ibn hajr haytami 9.24
                              باب ما يحصل لأمته صلى الله عليه وسلم من استغفاره بعد وفاته
                              عن عبدالله بن مسعود عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال إن لله ملائكة سياحين يبلغون عن أمتي السلام قال وقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم حياتي خير لكم تحدثون وتحدث لكم ووفاتي خير لكم تعرض علي أعمالكم فما رأيت من خير حمدت الله عليه وما رأيت من شر استغفرت الله لكم
                              رواه البزار ورجاله رجال الصحيح

                              "My life is better for you, you narrate Ahadith and Ahadith are narrated for you. When I pass away it will continue to benefit you because your actions will be presented before me. If I see a good deed I shall praise Allah Soobha Nahu Wata'ala, If I see a bad deed of yours I shall ask Allah Soobha Nahu Wata'ala to forgive you.

                              Narated by Bazzar with men who are sahi [Majma-uz-Zwaaid, vol.9, pg.24]

                              Hear it clearly shows that our Nabi sualallhualaihewasallam does make dua for us after his death. May Allah show us and keep us on right path.


                              3. If going to the grave of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to ask him to make duaa to Allah was permissable, Umar radiyallahu anhu would have done that when wanting to do istisqa instead of doing it through the uncle of the Messenger sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, who was alive, and Umars (r.a) saying we used to make tawassul through your Prophets duaa, and now we do tawassul through the uncle of your Prophet, indicates that they dont make tawassul through the Prophets (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) duaa after his death, and only when he was alive, or else why would he say we used to?

                              REPLY: As per the proof given by you which is as follows: The people suffered a drought during the time of Umar (his khilafah)
                              This means that it was the time when Umar radiallahu anhu was the Khalifa and when he said this we used to make tawassul through your Prophets duaa this period includes the period of both during the life time of Prophet sualallahualaihewasallam and after his death and also when Abu bakr radiallahuanhu was the khalifa. So your explanation that indicates that they dont make tawassul through the Prophets (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) duaa after his death is wrong. Secondly you have mistranslated the haddeth as we used to make tawassul through your Prophets duaa

                              Muslims do see Arabic text of that hadees as follows and nowhere does it says Prophets duaa:

                              Sahi Bukhari 3.1360

                              باب ذكر العباس بن عبد المطلب رضي الله عنه
                              3507 حدثنا الحسن بن محمد حدثنا محمد بن عبد الله الأنصاري حدثني أبي عبد الله بن المثنى عن ثمامة بن عبد الله بن أنس عن أنس رضي الله عنه ثم أن عمر بن الخطاب كان إذا قحطوا استسقى بالعباس بن عبد المطلب فقال اللهم إنا كنا نتوسل إليك بنبينا صلى الله عليه وسلم فتسقينا وإنا نتوسل إليك بعم رآه فاسقنا قال فيسقون

                              How can one change the word tawaasul ilaikaa bi nabiyinaa to tawassul through your Prophets duaa. Whereas the right translation is we use to take wasila of our Prophet towards you (Allah) and now we take wasila of his uncle

                              4. If what the man did (wether it was Bilal ibn al Harith radiyallahu anhu or someone else) was correct\permissable, then:

                              o Why didnt any of the scholars I quoted mention the narration in a chapter titled (tawassul by the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) or some title indicating that the narration is EVIDENCE for permissibility of that type of tawassul?
                              Instead they title the chapter in which the narration is in (salat al istisqa- the man didnt do salat al Istisqa at the grave, only did duaa, while Umar rA did salat al istisqa) , (The people asking the Imam to do istisqa in times of drought), wouldnt it be more important to point out the permissibility of tawassul through the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam after his death, which is stronger than doing tawassul through the righteous and ahl al bayt?
                              Instead they ignored that part , showing no importance to it at all.
                              So if they believed that the narration indicates the permissibility of such a tawassul, why didnt they at least hint to it by the chapter title or a comment like they did to show that it meant to do intercession through saliheen and ahl al bayt, and ask the imam to do istisqa?

                              REPLY:

                              If Aqida is based on the titles given by various scholars then we all should be muqalid of the scholars.

                              For example :

                              It is recorded in al-Darimi's Sunan, in the 15th Chapter of the Introduction (1:43) titled: "Allah's generosity to His Prophet after his death," related from Aws ibn `Abd Allah:

                              "The people of Madina complained to `A'isha of the severe drought that they were suffering. She said: "Go to the Prophet's grave and open a window towards the sky so that there will be no roof between him and the sky." They did so, after which they were watered with such rain that vegetation grew and the camels got fat. That year was named the Year of Plenty."

                              Now will you say we should belive on the title given by the scholar?

                              The scholars like Ibn Hajr Asqalani gave the hadees about visiting the grave in Fatahul bari to explain that even that incidence took place and it was Permissible. ALhumdollilahe.


                              o What was the point of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam telling Umar r.A be clever?

                              REPLY:

                              This question goes directly to our Prophet Sualallahualahewasallam and it also shows that you have accepted that Prophet Sualallahualahewasallam did said to Umar radiallahu to be clever.

                              o If the man told Umar that he went to the grave, and then told him about the dream, why would Umar do salat al istisqa when the man already asked the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to do istisqa and he told him that they will be watered?
                              Isnt the istisqa of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam sufficient?

                              REPLY:

                              Istisqa was taught by our Prophet sualalualaihewasallam when he was alive. DO you mean to say that there was need for salatul istisqa when Prophet sualalualaihewasallam was alive. If not then why did Prophet sualalualaihewasallam taught it? This is shariyat that we follow.

                              o If the action of the man was correct (to ask the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to do istisqa), and the Prophet S.A.W answered his request, then why didnt it rain immediately after the dream, and instead came down immediately after al Abbass (radiyallahu anhu) duaa?
                              Who is higher in status, the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam or his uncle?

                              REPLY: If? I say it is indeed. You need to understand what shariyat is. Prophet sualallahualaihewasallam was informed by Allah but still he used to ask others to produce proof in cases of murder or adultery. Did he needed that? Was not wahi enough to accept everything. This is shariyat.
                              When Prophet sualallahualaihewasallam said it will rain then we muslims must believe it will. How it will, it is the way of shariyat. The main question is that Umar radiallahu anhu accepted the mans dream as you mentioned before : ! So, the man went and told Umar,

                              Finally who was superior Umar radiallahu or Al Abbas radiallahu anhu? Umar radiallahu was the Khalifa and his dua would have been the best in this period but still he asked Abbas radiallahu for tawassul to proove us that it is indeed through the Prophets family that tawassul can be made.

                              And now some hadees sharif:

                              Ibn Abi Shayba narrates in the chapter entitled: "Touching the grave of the Prophet" with a sahih chain according to Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani and al-Qadi 'Iyad in al-Shifa' (in the chapter entitled: "Concerning the visit to the Prophet's grave , the excellence of those who visit it and how he should be greeted"):

                              Yazid ibn 'Abd al-Malik ibn Qusayt and al-'Utbi narrated that it was the practice of the Companions in the mosque of the Prophet to place their hands on the pommel of the hand rail (rummana) of the pulpit (minbar) where the Prophet used to place his hand.

                              There they would face the Qibla and supplicate to Allah Almighty and Exalted hoping He would answer their supplication because they were placing their hands where the Prophet placed his while making their supplication. Abu Mawduda said: "And I saw Yazid ibn 'Abd al-Malik do the same."

                              Ibn Abi Shayba, Musannaf (4:121).

                              Now I ask does the title of this chapter affects us or not and does this incidence helps us in some way regarding tawassul or not?

                              Qays ibn Abi Hazim narrated that one day, `Umar addressed the people from the pulpit in Madina and said in his address:

                              "Verily there is in the Gardens of `Adn a palace which has five hundred doors, each posted with five thousand of the ladies of Paradise, and none but a Prophet shall enter it." At this point he turned to the grave of the Messenger of Allah - upon him blessings and peace - and said: "Congratulations to you, O dweller of this grave!" Then he continued: "And none but a Most-Truthful One (siddiq) shall enter it." At this point he turned towards Abu Bakr's grave and said: "Congratulations to you, Abu Bakr!" Then he said: "And none but a Martyr shall enter it," and he pointed to himself. He continued, speaking to himself outloud: "And when did you inherit martyrdom, `Umar?" Then he said: "Truly, the One who brought me out from Makka unto the migration to Madina is able to bring me martyrdom!"

                              Al-Tabarani narrated it in al-Awsat through trustworthy narrators cf. al-Haythami, Majma` al-Zawa'id (9:54-55).

                              MAY ALLAH KEEP US AND SHOW US THE RIGHT PATH OF THE SAHABAS AND HIS FRIENDS.

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