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Proving with LOGIC that Allah is above the creation

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  • Proving with LOGIC that Allah is above the creation

    Assalaamu 'Alaikum,

    I was wondering if anyone has logical points to prove that Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta'aala) is above the creation, above the throne and not everywhere as some people claim and also, if someone could post the evidences from the Qur'aan and Sunnah which tell us that we will see Allah (subhaanahu wa ta'aala) in the hereafter.

    Some of the points which I am already aware of are:

    - "God must exist and exist objectively. To exist objectively God must have all the attributes of objective existents. God must therefore be somewhere and cannot thus be everywhere."

    - "If God was everywhere before He created some things, then where did He create them? To say that He created them inside Himself is absurd. To say that He created them outside Himself contradicts the statement that He is everywhere. To say that God shrank to leave some space for them is absurd."


    *{above points derived from the article by Sheikh Ja'far Idris on the Names & Attributes of Allah}

  • #2
    Either God is everywhere, nowhere, or somewhere. There is no other alternative.

    The idea that God is everywhere is the viewpoint of the pagans, and thus we reject it.

    The idea that God is nowhere is the viewpoint of the atheists, and thus we reject it.

    Therefore the only possibility is that God is somewhere. What is this somewhere? It is above the heavens.

    Comment


    • #3
      As-Salamu A'alykum

      i have some logical arguments to prove that Allah Ta'ala is not within His creation, thus not everywhere; however I'm not too sure whether my arguments are according to true teachings and understanding of Islam. So please correct me if i'm wrong, Jazak Allah khair.

      I say (logically speaking): Allah Ta'ala and His Mind are one and indistinguishable--keeping in mind that there is noting like Him. When He wills, His thoughts become reality and since this reality is indeed real, objects only exist due to His Imagination. In other words, we are nothing more than the Imagination of Allah Ta'ala, which became reality due to His will. From this we can conclude few things: (1) we are always in the Mind of Allah Ta'ala thus He is aware of our every single action. (2) we are sustained by Allah Ta'ala (by His thoughts) and that's why we call Him, Al-Mughith. (3) We are the imagined beings and Allah Ta'ala is unimaginable. (4) Our freedom of making free choices is the manifestation of absolute will of Allah Ta'ala and exercised within His absolute will since by (2); hence nothing can happen or exist without His permission and will.

      Now to conclude the final part, since this Universe is nothing more than the Imagination of Allah Ta'ala, it follows tawheed and that is Allah Ta'ala is ONLY ONE and ABSOLUTELY UNIQUE. He is separate from His imagined creation; the creation does not surround him, nor it is above Him and He is above all things.

      I hope this helps, insha'Allah, and again, please correct me if my arguments go against the correct understanding of Islam, Jazak Allah khair!
      Fi Amanillah
      Wa As-Salāmu 'Alaykum
      Islamic-Life
      Bringing Da'wah back..to life!

      Alee bin al-Madini (rahimahullah) said: "When someone says so and so is an anthropomorphist we come to know he is a Jahmi". [Sharh Usool ul-I'tiqaad (no.306)]

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by islamiclife View Post
        As-Salamu A'alykum

        i have some logical arguments to prove that Allah Ta'ala is not within His creation, thus not everywhere; however I'm not too sure whether my arguments are according to true teachings and understanding of Islam. So please correct me if i'm wrong, Jazak Allah khair.

        I say (logically speaking): Allah Ta'ala and His Mind are one and indistinguishable--keeping in mind that there is noting like Him. When He wills, His thoughts become reality and since this reality is indeed real, objects only exist due to His Imagination. In other words, we are nothing more than the Imagination of Allah Ta'ala, which became reality due to His will. From this we can conclude few things: (1) we are always in the Mind of Allah Ta'ala thus He is aware of our every single action. (2) we are sustained by Allah Ta'ala (by His thoughts) and that's why we call Him, Al-Mughith. (3) We are the imagined beings and Allah Ta'ala is unimaginable. (4) Our freedom of making free choices is the manifestation of absolute will of Allah Ta'ala and exercised within His absolute will since by (2); hence nothing can happen or exist without His permission and will.

        Now to conclude the final part, since this Universe is nothing more than the Imagination of Allah Ta'ala, it follows tawheed and that is Allah Ta'ala is ONLY ONE and ABSOLUTELY UNIQUE. He is separate from His imagined creation; the creation does not surround him, nor it is above Him and He is above all things.

        I hope this helps, insha'Allah, and again, please correct me if my arguments go against the correct understanding of Islam, Jazak Allah khair!
        Salaam.

        Yes it does. [don't take this rudely]

        You said some wierd stuff, I guess you been influenced somewhere by the wrong person.

        Anyway I will wait for bro Ayman or Haitham to come and correct you.

        Comment


        • #5
          You could proove it in this way (not directly though): It is easy to proove logically that the Qur'an is the word of Allah. And what the Qur'an says is that Allah, azza wa jall, is above His creation. This is what I prefer in a dialogue: prooving the authenticity of a text, then using it whenever I want. Because Qur'an is to be followed because it is Allah's word, and we have the obligation to be His slaves. My opinion only, Allah knows best of course.

          Comment


          • #6
            As Salam Alaykum,

            In surah 75 you will find that an ayah states that people will be looking at their Lord, if you read the tafsir that may also hold narration and other similar verses.

            As for Allah being above his creation, there is a book called Beneficial Speech in Establishing Evidences for Tawheed, (something like this), it was reccomended, according to the foreword, by Shaykh Muqbil, there is a chapter with this regard, stating verses from the Qur'an 20:05 one of them I think, and others which state that good deeds/affairs go up to Him, also, there is within the chapter a hadith of an incident of a slave girl, to cut the story short, she was asked two questions one of which was where is Allah, by our Prophet, salAllahu alayhi wa salam, and then she replied fissamaa, above the heavens and he approved. I dont know if thats what you wanted.

            One thing you may want to consider, with regards to Allah, it may not be possible to just know/logically, His names or attributes.

            And Allah knows best.
            Alhamdulillah, the One who stopped me from useless talk such that when I review my old posts I'm not that ashamed.


            27) Do not be happy when others make mistakes even if they appose your opinion.

            Comment


            • #7
              1) Allah SWT could be either inside the world or outside the world ... It is a matter of agreement among main stream Muslims that He is outside the world. Being inside the world means that He SWT mixes with impurities, an aspect of imperfection.

              2) The universe is round (spherical).

              3) Relative to itself, a spherical shape can only have two directions: a top and a bottom.

              4) For a spherical shape, bottom is towards its center, above is away from its center.

              5) Allah SWT is away from the center of the world, otherwise He would be inside the world. so He is certainly above it.

              Wallahu A'lam.
              Always remember … without total fluency in the Arabic language, you can only attain basic Islamic knowledge ... but basic knowledge is the path to advanced knowledge
              haitham_hamdan@hotmail.com

              Comment


              • #8
                بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

                It is too simple but people complicate everything, subhan Allah. smile

                All what you need to prove by logic that Allah is above everything, the following:

                The argument is about Allah and His creature, so we agree that our argument is about:

                a) The Creator

                b) The Created

                That means: Allah is First then craetures came second

                This lead us to: Before creation there was Only Allah alone and nothing existed but Himself as he is the Al-Awal wa Al-Akhir. This lead us to confirm that time and place and whatever it contains came second and created.

                At the time creatures were created, it is normal that all the creatures to be below the creator. It does not make sense that the creatures to be above the creator because the rank of the creature is abosulte less and low and it does not make sense it is around him because Allah is not limited by directions.

                That's said, we conclude that whatever is created is normally and automaically being positioned below Allah subhanu Wa Ta'al. smile

                In reagrsd my beloved brother islamic response,

                It is better to refrain from structuring personal thoughts to explain matters related to religion and base arguments on scholarly work to avoid falling into saying words without being aware of its danger. smile

                I will leave the correction of some of the thoughts presented there for sister Umm abdullah, inshallah.

                Jazakom Allah khier
                Seeking Knowledge & Learning Fiqh Is Only Praised When It Is For The Purpose Of Acting Upon It, Not For The Sake Of Discussions & Arguments

                Why Posts Are Deleted?
                [Subscribe] Oasis.of.Serenity

                If I do not greet back in writing then know I do it verbally because sometimes I am too busy and just want to answer the question.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Haitham Hamdan View Post

                  1) Allah SWT could be either inside the world or outside the world ... It is a matter of agreement among main stream Muslims that He is outside the world. Being inside the world means that He SWT mixes with impurities, an aspect of imperfection.

                  2) The universe is round (spherical).

                  3) Relative to itself, a spherical shape can only have two directions: a top and a bottom.

                  4) For a spherical shape, bottom is towards its center, above is away from its center.

                  5) Allah SWT is away from the center of the world, otherwise He would be inside the world. so He is certainly above it.

                  Wallahu A'lam.
                  Beautiful.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Skillganon View Post
                    Salaam.

                    Yes it does. [don't take this rudely]

                    You said some wierd stuff, I guess you been influenced somewhere by the wrong person.

                    Anyway I will wait for bro Ayman or Haitham to come and correct you.
                    Wa'alykum As-Salam

                    no offence taken akhi, I already had doubts about my arguments and that's why I want someone to correct me, so that i can present the polished version of it to atheists.

                    Originally posted by Ayman bin khaled View Post

                    In reagrsd my beloved brother islamic response,

                    It is better to refrain from structuring personal thoughts to explain matters related to religion and base arguments on scholarly work to avoid falling into saying words without being aware of its danger. smile

                    I will leave the correction of some of the thoughts presented there for sister Umm abdullah, inshallah.

                    Jazakom Allah khier
                    Jazak Allah khair akhi for the advice and I'm already very well aware of that. The reason I brought this up is b/c i'm in middle of writing an article to prove to atheists that Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala exists and I was reading a book and it mentioned this argument. I re-worded it and discarded the faulty version using the little knowledge that I have. I still had doubts in my mind that this does not sound right and I want someone to correct my mistakes so that I can present the polished version in my article.

                    again, Jazak Allah khair for the reminder
                    Fi Amanillah
                    Wa As-Salāmu 'Alaykum
                    Islamic-Life
                    Bringing Da'wah back..to life!

                    Alee bin al-Madini (rahimahullah) said: "When someone says so and so is an anthropomorphist we come to know he is a Jahmi". [Sharh Usool ul-I'tiqaad (no.306)]

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Jazakumullaah khairan for the responses.

                      The points brought up totally make sense and I have no doubt that Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta'aala) is indeed above His creation.

                      But, I was talking to someone about this, and they said that the arguments are invalid because they are addressing the issue as if Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta'aala) is material, {which we object anyway}.

                      I was saying how immaterial things exist subjectively and material beings exist objectively. But since Allaah is immaterial, does this also mean he exists subjectively? Audhubillah, obviously we dont say this, rather He exists objectively. Dont know if I'm making sense?

                      Wallaahu A'lam.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by al-Ansaari View Post
                        Jazakumullaah khairan for the responses.

                        The points brought up totally make sense and I have no doubt that Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta'aala) is indeed above His creation.

                        But, I was talking to someone about this, and they said that the arguments are invalid because they are addressing the issue as if Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta'aala) is material, {which we object anyway}.

                        I was saying how immaterial things exist subjectively and material beings exist objectively. But since Allaah is immaterial, does this also mean he exists subjectively? Audhubillah, obviously we dont say this, rather He exists objectively. Dont know if I'm making sense?

                        Wallaahu A'lam.
                        In essence, that person is saying that Allah [swt] doesn't exist.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Allah has to be above His creation, for if He is below His creation then He would be in a place.

                          One is in a place if he is being encompassed by something, not necessarily if he encompasses something. For example, I am in a place (i.e. Middle East) because I am encompassed by the geographic area of the Middle East. The Middle East is also in an area (i.e. Asia) because the geographic area of Asia encompasses the Middle East. Thus, the Middle East is in a place not because it encompasses me, but because it is being encompassed. So something could encompass something else and not be in a place if that same thing is not being encompassed by something (Allah is the only example of this).

                          Now let us turn to Allah (swt). If Allah is below His creation then that means that He is being encompassed by His creation. If Allah is encompassed then that means that He is in a place. But all orthodox Muslims agree that Allah is not in a place. However, if Allah is above His creation and there is nothing above Him then that means that He is not encompassed by anything. If Allah is not encompassed by anything then that means that He is not in a place (which is Ahlus Sunnah belief). So since the creation is encompassed by Allah (because it is below him) then that makes the creation in a place, but not the Creator.

                          In conclusion, Allah HAS TO BE above His creation in order for Him to not be in a place.


                          (Yeah I know, you gotta read the above like 5 times to let it sink in)
                          www.call-to-monotheism.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            3) Relative to itself, a sperical shape can only have two directions: a top and a bottom.

                            4) For a sperical shape, bottom is towards its center, above is away from its center.

                            I am trying to understand these two points better. Why can't a spherical shape have a left and a right to it?

                            How did you reach the conclusion that "bottom is towards its center"?
                            www.call-to-monotheism.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bassam Zawadi View Post
                              Allah has to be above His creation, for if He is below His creation then He would be in a place.

                              One is in a place if he is being encompassed by something, not necessarily if he encompasses something. For example, I am in a place (i.e. Middle East) because I am encompassed by the geographic area of the Middle East. The Middle East is also in an area (i.e. Asia) because the geographic area of Asia encompasses the Middle East. Thus, the Middle East is in a place not because it encompasses me, but because it is being encompassed. So something could encompass something else and not be in a place if that same thing is not being encompassed by something (Allah is the only example of this).

                              Now let us turn to Allah (swt). If Allah is below His creation then that means that He is being encompassed by His creation. If Allah is encompassed then that means that He is in a place. But all orthodox Muslims agree that Allah is not in a place. However, if Allah is above His creation and there is nothing above Him then that means that He is not encompassed by anything. If Allah is not encompassed by anything then that means that He is not in a place (which is Ahlus Sunnah belief). So since the creation is encompassed by Allah (because it is below him) then that makes the creation in a place, but not the Creator.

                              In conclusion, Allah HAS TO BE above His creation in order for Him to not be in a place.


                              (Yeah I know, you gotta read the above like 5 times to let it sink in)
                              Bro, this depends on your definition of the word 'place'.

                              You see, we acknowledge that Allah [swt] has a 'where'. Why? Because the Prophet [s] said that Allah [swt] has a 'where', when he [s] asked the slave-girl 'where is Allah [swt]?' So I believe we call it a Shari'i term.

                              But as for terms like 'direction' (al-jihah) and 'place', then these are non-Shari'i terms, since they are not used in the Quran or the Ahadeeth. But basically, we must first define what we mean by 'direction' or 'place', before we negate the meaning of them.

                              So for 'place', if by this we mean a created thing, surrounded by creation, then we reject this meaning and say Allah [swt] is not in a place. But if we use a definition of 'place' which is 'a mental thing', i.e. a descriptor, then we say that Allah's place is above the heavens, distinct from the creation.

                              Personally, I find the second usage of the word 'place' to be more contemporary and therefore more relevant. We use 'place' as a descriptor...it is not a created thing in and of itself.

                              Originally posted by Bassam Zawadi View Post
                              I am trying to understand these two points better. Why can't a spherical shape have a left and a right to it?

                              How did you reach the conclusion that "bottom is towards its center"?
                              It's true. A sphere has only inwards and outwards. It's just mathematical. How would you denote a left and a right when a sphere has no sides? If you claim that Asia is the 'right side', then someone else could claim it is the 'left side' and that north america was 'the right side', etc...If I throw you a ball, can you locate its top, bottom, left, or right? You couldn't because a ball has no sides.

                              So mathematically, a sphere simply has a center and circumference.

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