Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Asharis Don't Believe That There is a Real Distinction Between Good and Evil

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Asharis Don't Believe That There is a Real Distinction Between Good and Evil

    This has seriously come as a surprise to me. I keep learning new things about the absurd beliefs of Asharis. First, I thought it was only about Allah's names and attributes and not using Ahaad hadeeth in Aqeedah. Then i find out that Asharis don't really believe in the reality of cause and effect. And now....... I find out that Asharis don't believe that there is really good and evil. What they believe to be good and evil is what Allah has said. So basically according to them, if Allah says raping a baby is something good, then that means that it is good. That means that it is possible that Allah could order Shirk and condemn Tawheed, however Allah didn't.

    Asharis fall right into the trap of Euthyphros dillema.


    Wooooooow unbelievable and these people actually think that they are intellectual.
    www.call-to-monotheism.com

  • #2
    In the sharh of Aqeedah at Tahawiyyah it goes through this. Maybe somebody could post the section about what Allaah has commanded and prohibited and good and evil. If I recall there are 3 classifications, but the Asharies only accept one. That nothing is intrinsically good or evil just what Allaah has commanded or forbidden is just to test us to obey or not. But is not evil or good either way.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Bassam Zawadi View Post
      This has seriously come as a surprise to me. I keep learning new things about the absurd beliefs of Asharis. First, I thought it was only about Allah's names and attributes and not using Ahaad hadeeth in Aqeedah. Then i find out that Asharis don't really believe in the reality of cause and effect. And now....... I find out that Asharis don't believe that there is really good and evil. What they believe to be good and evil is what Allah has said. So basically according to them, if Allah says raping a baby is something good, then that means that it is good. That means that it is possible that Allah could order Shirk and condemn Tawheed, however Allah didn't.

      Asharis fall right into the trap of Euthyphros dillema.


      Wooooooow unbelievable and these people actually think that they are intellectual.
      Cause and Effect: Umar ibn al- Khattab said, “The book is written and it is shut.” Allah is the Creator of you and your actions.

      Good and evil is what Allah has said. Otherwise we fall in the trap which Allah warns against of thinking something is good for us when Allah has said it is bad, and vice versa. That is very simple.

      Allah would not order shirk because it is impossible for Him, and this is known by the Ashari's. So when you say "it is possible that Allah could order Shirk" in fact the answer is "it is impossible that Allah could order Shirk ".

      Comment


      • #4
        Cause and Effect: Umar ibn al- Khattab said, “The book is written and it is shut.” Allah is the Creator of you and your actions.
        How on earth does that negate cause and effect?

        Good and evil is what Allah has said. Otherwise we fall in the trap which Allah warns against of thinking something is good for us when Allah has said it is bad, and vice versa. That is very simple.
        Umm nooo. your not getting the point. Of course good and evil is what Allah has said, but your confusing epistemology with ontology.

        We come to know what is good and evil by seeing what Allah said.

        However, there actually exists in reality a good and evil. Allah is good by nature. Shirk is not bad ontologically because Allah chose to say so, rather it is actually bad in and of it self. Asharis deny that. Asharis say that Shirk is bad, only because Allah felt like saying that. They don't say that it is impossible for Shirk to have been good.
        www.call-to-monotheism.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bassam Zawadi View Post
          However, there actually exists in reality a good and evil. Allah is good by nature. Shirk is not bad ontologically because Allah chose to say so, rather it is actually bad in and of it self.
          Are you saying that there exists good and evil, which exists in and of itself, independent of Allah?

          And are you saying that Allah is obliged to act according to that good and evil?

          These are questions and not statements of your belief, so please do not feel offended.

          Comment


          • #6
            Are you saying that there exists good and evil, which exists in and of itself, independent of Allah?

            And are you saying that Allah is obliged to act according to that good and evil?
            Nope, that's the second problem of Euthyphros dillemma. I avoid that as well.

            This was discussed in detail under the thread "Euthyphro on Morals".
            www.call-to-monotheism.com

            Comment


            • #7
              How did you avoid it?

              You said, "Shirk is not bad ontologically because Allah chose to say so, rather it is actually bad in and of it self".

              Comment


              • #8
                I said this:

                This was discussed in detail under the thread "Euthyphro on Morals".
                www.call-to-monotheism.com

                Comment


                • #10
                  In that thread ("Euthyphro on Morals") you said, "Our moral values and duties are determined by God’s commands, but these commands are not arbitrary because they are expressions of the very nature of God Himself, which is immutable, necessary, non-contingent and is THE GOOD".

                  Based on that, wouldn't it have been more correct to say that Shirk is bad because it relates to the very nature of God Himself, rather than saying it is bad in and of itself?

                  I liked your answer to the dilemma, by the way.

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    I don't think none of you truely know the deep dark sea of this topic as nearly well as Bassam.

                    I know Bassam well enough to know that all of you are mere tadpoles in even discussing with him on theis topic, WHY>

                    because this debate between good and evil is a mountainous debate amongst the philosophers which has also taken root in the ahlul-kalaam groups due to their connection to the creedal importation of greek philosophy.

                    when I get a chance, I'll bring some of the super kalaami stuff that has been debated over. The basic essence of the debate is

                    "Are good thing intrinsically good or is it good on the basis that God said so and is evil intrinsically evil or is it evil only because God declared it so"

                    this is the single point that resulted in hard core philosophical polemics in the whole of the greek philosophical world which I think as well spilled over to the world of kalaam and even into hindu philosophy.

                    asalamu alaikum
                    ابو نعيمة علي البريكي


                    "I have debated with the Ash'aris
                    and it has become clear to me that they believe that Allah does not exist"


                    May Allah hasten the Muslims back to the path
                    that granted victory to them before.


                    http://islamthought.wordpress.com/

                    http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Wa alaikum us-salam.

                      May Allah forgive us in this blessed month of Ramadan and increase us in what is good.

                      Amin.

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Based on that, wouldn't it have been more correct to say that Shirk is bad because it relates to the very nature of God Himself, rather than saying it is bad in and of itself?
                        Perhaps your right that my wording may have misled some people, but now you know what I mean.

                        Salam
                        www.call-to-monotheism.com

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Salam.

                          El-hamdulillah.

                          May Allah reward your sincere efforts in the Din.

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            okay

                            here is the start of it

                            Socratus asked some greek dude (forgot name) this question -

                            Does God love an action because it is intrinsically 'good' or is an action 'good' because God loves it?
                            ابو نعيمة علي البريكي


                            "I have debated with the Ash'aris
                            and it has become clear to me that they believe that Allah does not exist"


                            May Allah hasten the Muslims back to the path
                            that granted victory to them before.


                            http://islamthought.wordpress.com/

                            http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/

                            Comment

                            Working...
                            X