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  • The Determination of the Gender of the Child Between The Texts and Science

    asalamu alaykum warahmatullah

    I am consolidating some post that our brother Ayman bin Khalid did on another forum and I felt it is best to put it here


    do you not know that man's discharge is thick and white and woman's is yellow and thin If any of these fluids becomes dominant, the offspring will take its sex and resemblance
    by Allah's leave. Hence, if the man's is more than the woman's, the child will be male, by Allah's leave. If the woman's discharge is more than the man's, then the child will be female, by Allah's leave.'

    Contradicts what science says on the issue. The scientific view is that the gender of the child depends solely on the chromosome (piece of genetic material) of the spermcell, and has nothing to do with the discharge of the woman.

    This is simple inshallah. However, it is important that I lay down an important principles when it comes to hadeeths and understanding them.

    1) We put authentic texts as our reference to understand what they imply.

    2) Authentic texts cannot oppose or contradict a fact or something known by default.

    3) If we come across an authentic text and it seems problemtic in light of science then we need to first see if this information in science is agreed on its correctness and a fact or disputed over. If what science say is agreed on then in such case we realize that the problem does not lie in the hadeeth but rather in our understanding to the hadeeth or the Quran.

    You should know, May Allah preserve you, that this hadeeth addresses two main issues; a) Resemblance of born children b) Gender of born children. Both issues result in relation to men and women. I will explain each issue inshallah but I would like first to quote the hadeeth in Arabic, highlight the key words (in Arabic) and then translate them because the provided translation has some mistakes, which most likely the cause of your confusion.

    These two issues are mentioned in two seperate hadeeths that are both documented in the Sahih Hadeeth books. This should be noted so that one do not think of it as one narration and so that one avoid linking parts together while trying to understand them.

    (1) The First Hadeeth is reported in Sahih Muslim (314):

    أن امرأة قالت لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : هل تغتسل المرأة إذا احتلمت وأبصرت الماء ؟ فقال " نعم " فقالت لها عائشة : تربت يداك . وألت . قالت فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم " دعيها . وهل يكون الشبه إلا من قبل ذلك . إذا علا ماؤها ماء الرجل أشبه الولد أخواله . وإذا علا ماء الرجل ماءها أشبه أعمامه " .
    Translation:

    "Aisha (رضي الله عنها) reported: one woman asked the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وسلم): "is woman required to perform ghusl (i.e. wash up according to the prescribed way) in case she had a wet dream and noticed the wetness? He replied: Yes. Aisha blamed the woman for asking such embarrasing question. However, the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said: Let her ask, for i resemblance happens because of it. when herwater is dominant, the born child resembles his maternal uncles but if sperm of the man was dominant, the born child should resemble his paternal uncles."

    The content of this narration is reported in other narrations as well and despite the slight difference of words, all narrations include the highlighted words.

    They key words of this hadeeth are:

    a- water [i.e. liquid] of women
    b-sperm of men
    c- dominance
    d- resemblance

    The topic of this hadeeth is about resemblance.

    This narration goes along with the genetic science that resemblance of children is explained through the theory of dominance where only superior genes appear on the child. It is also known that sperm is alkalic whereas women "ejaculated fluid" is Acidic. In order for sperm to reach the woman egg it has to go through the woman discharge. Thus, when acidic and alkalic fluids meet, alkalic fluids either neutralize, or overpower, acidic sperm and hence cause sperm to preserve its nature [i.e. men genes become weak] or that alkalic discharge effect acidic sperm and makes it weak. [This can be one of the interpretations and understanding...]

    You or anyone else may argue, well this is not convincing though it might be possible for this we cannot accept this narration as authentic. I say, well it is obvious that rejecting it is based on assumption of what this text implies and hence a judgmenet is made. However, as this supposed to be scinetifically examined then we only can reach this decession based on facts and certanity. ANd this is what I will offer now inshallah in support of this hadeeth.

    One major point that may cause all this confusion about this hadeeth and hence some people find it problemtic is because they tend to immeditaly understand the word "water of women" to mean ejaculated fluid that happens due to intimicay or arousing.

    If we pay attention to the words used in this hadeeth we will find outsnading findings i.e. He صلى الله عليه وسلم used the word "water" in reference to the liquid of women and he did not specify it any further.

    As some may suggest, how come this hadeeth be possible and correct when we know that women ejaculated discharges have nothing to do with resemblance or identifying the sex of the born child!!!

    We say in response, I agree with you and for this reason we need rely on the princible number 3 that I have listed above i.e. we should reconsider our understanding of this hadeeth. So how should we understand it?

    Well, there is no one better to explain one narration except the one who said it. For this reason, let's know first what the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم meant with "water of women" since he did not specify it. Well, true that he did not specify it but he actually described it when he said in another narration " the water" of women is yellow and thin. So, what is that fluid that has such description?

    Simple, it is known that ejaculated discharges due to arousing or intimiacy are white. The only liquid that is yellow is actually called "Follicuar Fluid" that is discharged without being related to copulation or being aroused and it is directly related to preganacy. It comes out with a thin layer called follicle of which inside there is a small egg that supposed to combine with the men sperm during fertilization in order for a child to be created.


    Finally, I would like you to understand that these narrations came in response to questions about why? and not to answer a question of how? In other words neither the questioner nor answerer [i.e. the Prophet] intended to explain the howness of this process. Rather, he wanted to explain why children sometimes resemble their fathers and some other times resemble their mothers. This is proven and well explained in the other hadeeth when the Prophet clearly state that resemblence is a pure genetic when a woman delivered a black boy and the man doubted that he his wife may slept with another man as none of the family was balck. When he explained it to the man he told him that a genetics of great grandfather may effect grand children. From this you know that it is obvious that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) acknowledged that determining thethe howness was left for us to discover but the hadeeth only provided us with the key, which is the answer to why this happen.

    and with the blessing of Allah, good deeds are performed.

    Wallahu A'lam


    - Regarding the alkalic vs acidic environment....However it is not true, that the amount of exposure can "weaken" their genes. Either the environment allows them to survive and it can fertilize an egg or it doesn't, and there will be no child at all. There isn't an inbetween where they still survive but with a "weakened" gene...

    My beloved brother,

    I already took in consideration what you said and I even stated that one may argue the incorrectness of this "possible" interpretation. Thus, I made a note of that then started explaining the actual sound understanding of the text and the principle that upon one need to rely on while doing so. Please read my post from the part when I said: .

    Ayman bin Khalid said: You or anyone else may argue, well this is not convincing though it might be possible for this we cannot accept this narration as authentic. I say, well it is obvious that rejecting it is based on assumption of what this text implies and hence a judgmenet is made. However, as this supposed to be scinetifically examined then we only can reach this decession based on facts and certanity. ANd this is what I will offer now inshallah in support of this hadeeth.
    To sum it up:

    a. The hadeeth only addresses the topic of resemblance.
    b. Science state that ejaculated liquids of women is irrelevant to childbearing or resemblance.
    c. The hadeeth is only addressing the topic of "resemblance".
    d.THe hadeeth called the liquid of women as "water" without specifying its nature or type.
    e. In other hadeeth this water has been descriped as "yellow and thin".
    f. Science state that only
    "Follicuar Fluid" has such description whereas other ejaculated liquids are white in color.
    g. Science state that
    "Follicuar Fluid" that has a layer that contains inside the egg is involved in the process. Beacuse men has semen that include sperm and woman has follicuar fluid that includes the egg.

    Based on this, the hadeeth become clear and understood. And there is no need to dig into it any further beacuse as we said the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was not explaining genetic science!! He was only answering how a child sometimes resemble his fathers side and some other times his mother side. If you keep this in mind you will realize that what you talk about is the howness of such process while the hadeeth is only tells us just why it happens. So, one should not add assumptions or take the hadeeth out of its context then examine it based on such assumptions!!

    Barak Allahu feekum and I have nothing further left to say as whatever I will say after will be within the lines I have written before. Also, you should not busy yourself with so much thinking about matters that do not benefit you in your hereafter. Neither Allah nor His Messenger asked you to validiate science. They wanted from you and us to know from this hadeeth to show the Power of Allah in such process that everyone take from granted as something normal and hence should not be that complicated. Take the moral of it and move on and look for other signs that stentghen your Imaan.

    Barak Allahu feekum and may Allah enlighten you and us with what benefit you in this life and the hereafter.

    Wallahu al-Muwaffiq


    Secondly, the hadeeth you quoted might not be regarding gender; but the one I quoted clearly is. This is a different, second hadeeth, the one I quoted from the beginning; not the one from bukhari you brought up. It is found in tefsir ibn Kathir and goes:
    The part of narration that talks about this particular topic is actually found in Sahih Muslim and hence there is no need to reference it to Tafsir Ibn Katheer.

    The Main Principles:

    a- Quran and Sunnah must be understood according to Arabic langauge after gathering all narrations together as one narration may explain another.

    b- In case a hadeeth or an Ayah is proven authentic then we find it contradicting a fact or a sensible event that is agreed on, we reconsider our understanding of the text because an authentic text cannot contradict a fact or agreed on truth.

    Scientific Facts:

    a. The egg is always the carrier of the X chromosome (XX).

    b. The spermcell of a man is the carrier of X and Y chromosomes. [i.e. It carries man and women chromosome].

    c.
    a. Determining the gender of children depends solely on the chromosome of the spermcell of the man.

    d. The combination of the "X" chromosome of the woman with the chromosome "Y" of the man creates a boy. However, if the
    "X" chromosome of the woman combine with the chromosome "X" of the man creates a girl.

    e. "Y" is manly while X is womanly.

    Study of the Hadeeth:

    a. Some scholars such like Ibn al-Qaiym questioned the authenticity of the words "it becomes male...it becomes female" and said
    it is a possible mistake made by one of the narrators in the chain as the preserved text states about resemblance.

    b. As we know that women has no role in deciding the gender of the child when fertilization takes place and the text appears to state something that seem to contradict this fact, we need to resort to laid down principles in order to guideline our understanding. This principle state that in such case, we reconsider our understanding to the texts. How? I will explain it in the following point.

    c. It is important to pay attention to the used words in the hadeeth. The key words we would like to highlight (I will translate the words of the text litterally to explain it further).

    The Hadeeth in Arabic is:

    " ماء الرجل أبيض وماء المرأة أصفر . فإذا اجتمعا، فعلا مني الرجل مني المرأة ، أذكرا بإذن الله . وإذا علا مني المرأة مني الرجل ، آنثا بإذن الله

    Literal Translation:

    The water of the man is white and the water of the woman is yellow. When they get together, if the sperm of the man become above the sperm of the woman, the child is male, by the permession of Allah, and if the sperm of the woman becomes above the sperm of the man, the child is a female by the permession of Allah.


    Notes:

    a- The word above here means "dominant" as this is one of the known meaning of the word "above" and has been used in Quran to mean "dominant and controlled".

    b. The first half of the hadeeth referred to the man and woman liquids as "water" while in the second half he became more specific as referred to it as "sperm".

    c. We already know that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم mentioned in other hadeeths that the "water" of women is involved in process of fertilization. Then we realized that this water has a description that does not befit ejaculated fuilds since ejaculated fluids are white in color whereas he described the color as yellow and thin.

    d. The sound understanding of this text is that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was referring in this hadeeth to the male and female chromosome of the spermcell of the man (X as the female chromosome and Y as the male chromosome). Based on this, the Prophet meant that when the male factor is dominant then it is a boy but when the female factor is domionant then it is a girl. This is what science states and this is the sound understanding that one should have beacuse the text can be understood in various ways and we know that authentic texts must be in agreement with agreed on facts.

    So, what caused the confusion?

    Simple, it is because when people "understood" it, they assumed that the "sperm" words used in this hadeeth refer to a man and a woman while as a matter of fact, he صلى الله عليه وسلم was referring to the sperm of the man only which is always a carrier of male and female chromosomes. This is supported by the fact that the word "sperm" is always execulsively for man when women liquid is always called water only.

    I hope inshallah this gives you better understanding to the texts and I ask Allah that He removes all doubts from your heart and strentghen your Imaan.

    Barak Allahu feekum

    Wallahu A"lam


    _________________________________________________

    Another point of scientific analysis is the following

    More Acidic Lower PH Makes you More Likely To Have A Girl Baby: If you check your vagina with PH testing strips and then notice that it is lower on the chart, that means that you are more acidic. (Im not giving actual PH ranges here because they vary based on the kit or method / chart that you are using.) If you are more acidic, you are more likely to conceive a girl baby.
    The reason for this is that the Y sperm chromosomes produce boys. And these Ys deteriorate quite quickly in an acidic vagina. That means theres less of them to fight for the egg.
    High PH / Being Alkaline And Its Affect On Baby Gender: On the other hand, if you have a high PH on the chart / kit that you are using, youre more likely to have a boy baby. The reason is that you dont have the acidity that is detrimental the Y sperm. So those Ys are then present in a larger amount. And, since they are faster then the X sperm chromosomes that produce girls, their larger numbers and faster speed makes it more likely that its one of them that will fertilize the egg.
    ابو نعيمة علي البريكي


    "I have debated with the Ash'aris
    and it has become clear to me that they believe that Allah does not exist"


    May Allah hasten the Muslims back to the path
    that granted victory to them before.


    http://islamthought.wordpress.com/

    http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/

  • #2
    Asalaamu Alaikum,

    Jazakallahkair bro, have you read this as well, what do you make of it? http://www.rcpe.ac.uk/journal/issue/...n_genetics.pdf
    A Fast Growing Islamic Search Website -

    www.Searching-Islam.com

    Comment


    • #3
      سۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ

      وعليكم السللام ورحمة الله وبركاته


      Akhi al habib Abu Naeem

      Unless you have background of studying medicine as profession your understanding of human embryology is remarkable!



      ...



      Originally posted by al-boriqee View Post

      he صلى الله عليه وسلم was referring to the sperm of the man only which is always a carrier of male and female chromosomes.

      .

      Based on above there are few points (green text) which may elaborate further what you have said in your post, InshaAllah.


      1. Human cell normally has 46 chromosomes.To make male sperm and female ovum cell divides and contains half the original number i.e. 23 chromosomes in each sperm and ovum.

      Out of these 23 chromosomes one is sex chromosome (which determines sex of the child) and remaining 22 chromosomes determine other features.On fertilization of sperm with ovum number of chromosomes return to 46 again.

      In case of female ovum all sex chromosomes are x-chromosome and in case of male half are x-chromosomes and half are y-chromosome.




      2. During mating process single discharge of fluid مني contains millions of sperms.

      Half of these sperms contain x- chromosomes or مني المرأة

      and half contain y-chromosomes or مني الرجل




      3. At the time of mating sperm are deposited at a distance from ovum and they swim towards the ovum.

      There is fierce competition between these millions of sperms, carrying either x or y chromosomes, to fertilize the ovum and only one is to fertilize the ovum normally.

      So if sperm containing y- chromosome or مني الرجل wins the competition, by fertilizing the ovum, and becomes علا , then a male child will be born with will of Allah.


      And if sperm containing x- chromosome or مني المرأة wins the competition, by fertilizing the ovum, and becomes علا then a female child will be born with will of Allah




      " ماء الرجل أبيض وماء المرأة أصفر . فإذا اجتمعا، فعلا مني الرجل مني المرأة ، أذكرا بإذن الله . وإذا علا مني المرأة مني الرجل ، آنثا بإذن الله





      And Allah knows best.








      (normally sperm containing x-chromosome is lighter and wins more frequently explaining higher number of female population in the world as compared to male)




      .
      والذين آمنوا أشد حبّا لله


      .

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by abdAllah. View Post
        سۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ

        وعليكم السللام ورحمة الله وبركاته


        Akhi al habib Abu Naeem

        Unless you have background of studying medicine as profession your understanding of human embryology is remarkable!

        .
        walaykum salam warahmatullahi wa barakatuhu wa maghfirtuhu

        Boy are you crazy. All of that is mumbo jumbo to me. i didn't author this. I clearly said that I took this post from another forum and brought it here. The research into it was from our Ayman bin Khaalid haafidhahullah.

        asalamu alaykum
        ابو نعيمة علي البريكي


        "I have debated with the Ash'aris
        and it has become clear to me that they believe that Allah does not exist"


        May Allah hasten the Muslims back to the path
        that granted victory to them before.


        http://islamthought.wordpress.com/

        http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/

        Comment


        • #5
          so to sums those two hadeeth:

          1. first, about resemblance. the Prophet salallahu alayhi wassalam just used the most appropriate sentence at that time. it might be hinting about DNA, but the howness wasn't explained.
          2. second, the whole sentence is about <male sperm>. and again, he just used what was appropriate for shahaba's understandings.

          thankfully I read this thread without any heart disease (like doubts, especially doubts). now my heart is at ease. thank you ustad boriqee.
          It is reported that Abdullh b. Masd Allh be pleased with him said:

          If I had ten days left to live, and I knew I would die by the end of them, and I had enough time to get married, I would get married for fear of temptation (fitnah).

          Sad b. Mansr, Al-Sunan article 493.

          Comment


          • #6
            let me make it clear that i had nothing to do with the above information. The above information was all on Aymen bin Khalid. i just posted it here, thats it

            masalama
            ابو نعيمة علي البريكي


            "I have debated with the Ash'aris
            and it has become clear to me that they believe that Allah does not exist"


            May Allah hasten the Muslims back to the path
            that granted victory to them before.


            http://islamthought.wordpress.com/

            http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/

            Comment


            • #7
              by Allah's leave. Hence, if the man's is more than the woman's, the child will be male, by Allah's leave. If the woman's discharge is more than the man's, then the child will be female, by Allah's leave.'
              This is the same thing they said on National Geographic channel as they said it happens the same with animals too.

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