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Ibn 'Umar Regarding Bid'ah

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  • Ibn 'Umar Regarding Bid'ah

    Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem,

    as-Salaamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullah.

    I was wondering, I heard in a talk today that with regards to salah ad duha, some people started praying it in congregation and there was a report from Ibn Umar which said that he said it was bida'h, but aparently, Ibn Hajr showed other reports from ibn Umar which said that he actually said Bidah Hasanah?


    Can someone shed more light on what this is all about, i.e. the narrations, authentic or not, etc

    Br.al-Habeshi
    Alhamdulillah, the One who stopped me from useless talk such that when I review my old posts I'm not that ashamed.


    27) Do not be happy when others make mistakes even if they appose your opinion.

  • #2
    Assalaamu aleykum, I found this:

    5. This is further confirmed by Ibn `Umar's reply when asked about Salat al-Duha: "It is an innovation and what a fine innovation it is!" (bid`atun wa ni`mati al-bid`atu hiya). Narrated from al-Hakam ibn al-A`raj by Ibn Abi Shayba in his Musannaf (2:172) with a sound chain according to Ibn Hajar in Fath al-Bari (1959 ed. 3:52) and from Mujahid by Ibn al-Ja`d in his Musnad ( p. 314) and al-Tabarani in al-Mu`jam al-Kabir (12:424). Another reply to the same question by Ibn `Umar: "At the time `Uthman was killed no-one considered it desirable [in the Religion] (ma ahadun yastahibbuha), and the people did not innovate anything that is dearer to me than that prayer." Narrated from Salim ibn `Abd Allah ibn `Umar by `Abd al-Razzaq with a sound chain according to Ibn Hajar in Fath al-Bari (1959 ed. 3:52). Both reports mean: Salat al-Duha as prayed on a regular basis in the Mosque, possibly in congregation as I witnessed it among Borneo Peninsula Shafi`is at the end of post-Fajr Fiqh gatherings.

    ###warning: no GF junk allowed in the Multaqa###

    Wa aleykum assalaam.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Sadiq3 View Post
      Assalaamu aleykum, I found this:

      5. This is further confirmed by Ibn `Umar's reply when asked about Salat al-Duha: "It is an innovation and what a fine innovation it is!" (bid`atun wa ni`mati al-bid`atu hiya). Narrated from al-Hakam ibn al-A`raj by Ibn Abi Shayba in his Musannaf (2:172) with a sound chain according to Ibn Hajar in Fath al-Bari (1959 ed. 3:52) and from Mujahid by Ibn al-Ja`d in his Musnad ( p. 314) and al-Tabarani in al-Mu`jam al-Kabir (12:424). .
      وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

      My beloved brother,

      The two quotes you have quoted are not answering the brother's question since they are addressing another topic!

      The narrations of Ibn Umar are only stating that the Duha prayer itself is a good innovation, albiet this is conformed to be sunnah but he was one of those who did not know that the Prophet (صلى اله عليه وسلم) prayed it. However, he was asked about praying it in the Masjid therefater he said it is an innovation as documented in Sahih Bukhari. That said, you know that Ibn Umar did not approave or liked praying it in public. So, what about praying it in congeration in public!

      Anyhow, praying nawafil in congeration is fine as long as it is not shown in public or performed in the Masjid as that will make it an innovation and disliked.

      Wallahu A'lam
      Seeking Knowledge & Learning Fiqh Is Only Praised When It Is For The Purpose Of Acting Upon It, Not For The Sake Of Discussions & Arguments

      Why Posts Are Deleted?
      [Subscribe] Oasis.of.Serenity

      If I do not greet back in writing then know I do it verbally because sometimes I am too busy and just want to answer the question.

      Comment


      • #4
        Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem,

        The narrations of Ibn Umar are only stating that the Duha prayer itself is a good innovation, albiet this is conformed to be sunnah but he was one of those who did not know that the Prophet (صلى اله عليه وسلم) prayed it.

        This has confused me Ustadh, are you saying that Ibn Umar did not know about the Salah yet he said it is a good innovation? Would this mean that he approved good Bid'ah?

        Br.al-Habeshi

        Alhamdulillah, the One who stopped me from useless talk such that when I review my old posts I'm not that ashamed.


        27) Do not be happy when others make mistakes even if they appose your opinion.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Al Habeshi View Post
          Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem,

          This has confused me Ustadh, are you saying that Ibn Umar did not know about the Salah yet he said it is a good innovation? Would this mean that he approved good Bid'ah?

          Br.al-Habeshi
          - He did not know that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) prayed it before.


          - He approved it because it is a Nafliah like any other Nafila that is allowed to be prayed at anytime.


          - He said it is bida'a in its linguistisc meaning.


          wallahu A'lam
          Seeking Knowledge & Learning Fiqh Is Only Praised When It Is For The Purpose Of Acting Upon It, Not For The Sake Of Discussions & Arguments

          Why Posts Are Deleted?
          [Subscribe] Oasis.of.Serenity

          If I do not greet back in writing then know I do it verbally because sometimes I am too busy and just want to answer the question.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Sadiq3 View Post
            Both reports mean: Salat al-Duha as prayed on a regular basis in the Mosque, possibly in congregation as I witnessed it among Borneo Peninsula Shafi`is at the end of post-Fajr Fiqh gatherings
            My beloved brother,

            I still advise you and everyone as well not to conclude rulings on their own! You keep issuing verdicts as if you are a scholar!!! Please stop doing that and do not be like those who Allah said about them "They caused mischeive on earth while they thought they are doing a good deed"!!

            There is nothing in the two reports, you have quoted, that mention performing Duha in congeration or even on regular basis! So, it is much apprecaited not to take the stand of scholars and students of knowledge.

            I believe if you manage to strugle harder with your Nafs to be able to admit that you are a layperson as most of us, then that will be a relief to you and us as it will control your thoughts when you come across narrations and stop you from issuing rulings that you have no knowledge about!

            Barak Allahu feekum
            Seeking Knowledge & Learning Fiqh Is Only Praised When It Is For The Purpose Of Acting Upon It, Not For The Sake Of Discussions & Arguments

            Why Posts Are Deleted?
            [Subscribe] Oasis.of.Serenity

            If I do not greet back in writing then know I do it verbally because sometimes I am too busy and just want to answer the question.

            Comment


            • #7
              ###warning: no GF junk allowed in the Multaqa###
              Interesting rule. I like.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Ayman bin khaled View Post
                My beloved brother,

                I still advise you and everyone as well not to conclude rulings on their own! You keep issuing verdicts as if you are a scholar!!! Please stop doing that and do not be like those who Allah said about them "They caused mischeive on earth while they thought they are doing a good deed"!!

                There is nothing in the two reports, you have quoted, that mention performing Duha in congeration or even on regular basis! So, it is much apprecaited not to take the stand of scholars and students of knowledge.

                I believe if you manage to strugle harder with your Nafs to be able to admit that you are a layperson as most of us, then that will be a relief to you and us as it will control your thoughts when you come across narrations and stop you from issuing rulings that you have no knowledge about!

                Barak Allahu feekum
                I am sorry brother Ayman, but this is wholly innappropriate. You were too eager to delete the link I posted, rather than figure out that I didn't say anything of my own, it was a quote directly from the link. It is a direct quotation! None of these are my words! I hope you seek Allah's forgiveness Ayman for your brash misjudgment and habitual elementary misunderstandings!!!

                Astaghfirallah wa audhubillah!

                It's a quotation! The brother said that he had heard in a lecture that Ibn Umar radiAllahu anhu considered it a bidah, I posted a link in English which gave more background about the narration in question! Nothing I said was of my own words, and moreover, it completely pertains to the topic. Fear Allah subhanu wa ta'ala!

                "5. This is further confirmed by Ibn `Umar's reply when asked about Salat al-Duha: "It is an innovation and what a fine innovation it is!" (bid`atun wa ni`mati al-bid`atu hiya). Narrated from al-Hakam ibn al-A`raj by Ibn Abi Shayba in his Musannaf (2:172) with a sound chain according to Ibn Hajar in Fath al-Bari (1959 ed. 3:52) and from Mujahid by Ibn al-Ja`d in his Musnad ( p. 314) and al-Tabarani in al-Mu`jam al-Kabir (12:424). Another reply to the same question by Ibn `Umar: "At the time `Uthman was killed no-one considered it desirable [in the Religion] (ma ahadun yastahibbuha), and the people did not innovate anything that is dearer to me than that prayer." Narrated from Salim ibn `Abd Allah ibn `Umar by `Abd al-Razzaq with a sound chain according to Ibn Hajar in Fath al-Bari (1959 ed. 3:52). Both reports mean: Salat al-Duha as prayed on a regular basis in the Mosque, possibly in congregation as I witnessed it among Borneo Peninsula Shafi`is at the end of post-Fajr Fiqh gatherings."

                I specifically said, "Assalaamu aleykum, I FOUND THIS," provided the quotation, and then posted the SOURCE, it being this website. http://www.livingislam.org/n/sldh_e.html

                Astaghfirallah wa audhubillah.

                I await your immediate reply and apology, inshaAllah. Wa aleykum assalaam.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ayman bin khaled View Post
                  وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

                  My beloved brother,

                  The two quotes you have quoted are not answering the brother's question since they are addressing another topic!

                  The narrations of Ibn Umar are only stating that the Duha prayer itself is a good innovation, albiet this is conformed to be sunnah but he was one of those who did not know that the Prophet (صلى اله عليه وسلم) prayed it. However, he was asked about praying it in the Masjid therefater he said it is an innovation as documented in Sahih Bukhari. That said, you know that Ibn Umar did not approave or liked praying it in public. So, what about praying it in congeration in public!

                  Anyhow, praying nawafil in congeration is fine as long as it is not shown in public or performed in the Masjid as that will make it an innovation and disliked.

                  Wallahu A'lam
                  This is exactly what the link I posted says. "Both reports mean: Salat al-Duha as prayed on a regular basis in the Mosque, possibly in congregation." So, you are rebuking me something that you think I said, but really didn't say, but you are actually confirming is correct. It all boils down to the fact that either you can't comprehend English, or refuse to read. I hope you learn from your mistake, inshaAllah. Wa aleykum assalaam.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sadiq3 View Post
                    I await your immediate reply and apology, inshaAllah. Wa aleykum assalaam.
                    forgive people instead asking them to apologize by you, may Allah also forgive you before you ask Allah to forgive you.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Did the Prophet read al-Duhaa everyday?

                      I have heard that A'isha was more punctual than the Prophet in relation to al-Duhaa. This needs to be verified.

                      If this is the case, and a Muslim reads it everyday (unlike the Prophet), then it would be a legal Sunnah (as it has been specifically legislated for) but it would be a linguistic Bid'ah in that he reads it continuously unlike the Prophet (in which there is no harm).

                      Allah knows best.
                      And what indicates to the religiosity and trustworthiness of Nu`aym [bin Hammad] is his returning to the truth whenever
                      he was told of his inadvertence and made aware of his mistake, as he never considered accepting the truth beneath himself

                      because returning to the truth is better than remaining in falsehood,
                      and the one who remains in falsehood will increase only in remoteness from the truth

                      (29/471, Tadheeb 'l-Kamal)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        To Sabiq3

                        There is a rule in this forum that links to deviant sites are not allowed, including GF Haddad's website.
                        If you want to quote something from there you can but without posting the link to it, and instead you can mention the name of the person who wrote what you quoted, in this case you would say: "G.F. Haddad said: ..... "
                        or you can mention before the quote that you took it from another site.
                        .

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          That's fine. However, posting a direct quotation from a website, specifically addressing the original poster's question, and providing the source, and then being told:

                          "I believe if you manage to strugle harder with your Nafs to be able to admit that you are a layperson as most of us, then that will be a relief to you and us as it will control your thoughts when you come across narrations and stop you from issuing rulings that you have no knowledge about!"

                          As if the words in question are my own and this is my "ruling?" It is wholly inappropriate--given the fact that common sense and five seconds of investigation would be able to ascertain that the excerpt in question was from the URL I provided.

                          Please delete my user name.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Brother, he is only human, he probably didn't notice the part where you said: "I found this", this happens to many of us where we miss one or 2 words and don't realize it.
                            And he probably didn't read what is in the link because it is a long article, and his time is limited, so he replied only to the part in ur post thinking it was your words.

                            There is no need to ask to delete your username, because the admins won't do that, and you shouldn't let this matter stop you from benefiting, and benefiting others.

                            Insha Allah sh. Ayman will reply to ur concern when he's online.
                            .

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sadiq3 View Post
                              I am sorry brother Ayman, but this is wholly innappropriate. You were too eager to delete the link I posted, rather than figure out that I didn't say anything of my own, it was a quote directly from the link. It is a direct quotation! None of these are my words! I hope you seek Allah's forgiveness Ayman for your brash misjudgment and habitual elementary misunderstandings!!!

                              Astaghfirallah wa audhubillah!

                              It's a quotation! The brother said that he had heard in a lecture that Ibn Umar radiAllahu anhu considered it a bidah, I posted a link in English which gave more background about the narration in question! Nothing I said was of my own words, and moreover, it completely pertains to the topic. Fear Allah subhanu wa ta'ala!


                              I await your immediate reply and apology, inshaAllah. Wa aleykum assalaam.
                              My beloved brother,

                              Firstly, I hope you can forgive me as I thought what you have "quoted" is your own words for the following reasons:

                              a) I have not noticed the "I found this" senetnce and hence what came after was naturally to be understood as your words.

                              b) reading in the quote: "As I witnessed in..." indicated that this your own observation

                              c) The way the words were written were not the normal style that scholars use in Fatwa or addressing topics, therefore it was more like layperson statements

                              Anyhow, since you have clarified it then I believe I was mistaken and this is normal to happen. As sister Um Abdullah , may Allah preserve her, said I hardly have time and it happens that sometimes I miss one word or two while reading.

                              In addition, when I mentioned that the quotes you have mentioned were irrelevant to the questions of the thread then believe me on it (smile) It is relevant to Duha Salaat but not the particular question besides I suggest when you wish to quote to abide by the policy of the Multaqa in terms of links and secondly you should only quote scholars to support a view and to quote average people who you heard saying so otherwise there will be no use of posting or asking here. smile

                              Jazakom Allah khiar for advising me to fear Allah, it is a beatuful advice. Yet, you have used it in wrong context but i will still surely, inshallah, accept your advice and act upon it.

                              Barak Allahu feekum
                              Seeking Knowledge & Learning Fiqh Is Only Praised When It Is For The Purpose Of Acting Upon It, Not For The Sake Of Discussions & Arguments

                              Why Posts Are Deleted?
                              [Subscribe] Oasis.of.Serenity

                              If I do not greet back in writing then know I do it verbally because sometimes I am too busy and just want to answer the question.

                              Comment

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