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  #1  
Old 05-27-2011, 12:12 PM
Abu Salaf Abu Salaf is offline
 
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Default The four Madhabs

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله


Firstly I want to apologize for my ignorance, but I want to finally clear these doubts.

The first thing what confuses me is that the truth can only be found within the four Madhabs. According to my knowledge, there had been more than four Madahabs, so why should the other ones be wrong in their Ijtihad? Let's assume there were no such thing like madhabs, so how would the scholars do Ijtihad? The Sahaba did Ijithad too and they didn't belong to one of the four Madhabs, so what makes the difference between a Sahabi and scholar (who is capable to do Ijithad)? Regarding absolute and partial Ijithad: Why could one of the four Imams do absolute Ijithad and the other ones cannot do? I've heard many times from scholars (e.g. Sh. Salih al Fawzan) "We don't follow the madhab, but the evidence."


Sh. Ayman, I hope this does not make you angry or takes you time away. Barak Allah fik
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  #2  
Old 05-27-2011, 12:56 PM
Um Abdullah M. Um Abdullah M. is offline
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assalamu alaykum

Shaikh Ayman I have a question on this.

Is there a difference if an opinion is agreed upon by the four madhhabs or differed upon?
What I mean is, when you say that the truth cannot be outside of the 4 madhhabs, do you mean matters which the 4 madhhabs agreed upon, or even in matters which the madhhabs differed in it?
what about an opinion by a scholar of the salaf that was authentically transmited to us, one who was not from the four madhhabs?
I do not mean following his madhhab as it was not preserved, but I mean following one opinion of his which was authentically transmitted to us, and based on evidence, that is different than the views of the 4 imams on a matter that is not agreed upon?



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Originally Posted by Abu Salaf View Post
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله
I've heard many times from scholars (e.g. Sh. Salih al Fawzan) "We don't follow the madhab, but the evidence."
Wa alaykum assalam wa rahmatullah

It means not to blindly follow the madhhab, in other words, if a scholar finds a ruling in a different madhhab than his which he believes has stronger textual evidence, then he is to take the opinion of the other madhhab and not be fanatic/muta'assib to his madhhab.
Shaikh Ayman can correct me if I am wrong in my understanding.
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  #3  
Old 05-27-2011, 04:18 PM
ibn al-Taalib ibn al-Taalib is offline
 
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Bismillah
Salaam
Even better, which of the 4 Imams told people to blindly follow them?
And since there's so much ikhtilaaf between them in a lot of issues, why don't the scholars of today (may Allah(swt) increase their knowledge and guide them and accept their works amen) resolve to fix these contradictions with authentic hadiths of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم rather than leaving the people in a state where they can't even agree on exactly how to pray?

Remember that not all of the Imams relied on authentic hadiths for all of their rulings. They had to go through other ways, like seeing the custom of the knowledgeable people of their time or relying on qiyas.
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  #4  
Old 05-27-2011, 06:37 PM
Ayman bin khaled Ayman bin khaled is offline
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Originally Posted by Abu Salaf View Post
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله
وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته


Quote:
The first thing what confuses me is that the truth can only be found within the four Madhabs. According to my knowledge, there had been more than four Madahabs, so why should the other ones be wrong in their Ijtihad?
Those who you refer to as more than four Madhabs such as Sufyan, al-Awza'ie and etc were Absolute Mujtahid. That said, you should draw a line between the era 1000 years ago where Mujtahid existed and nowadays where no absolute Mujtahid can be.

Quote:
Let's assume there were no such thing like madhabs, so how would the scholars do Ijtihad?
This is hypothetical question that does not apply to reality so there is no use in answering it.

Quote:
The Sahaba did Ijithad too and they didn't belong to one of the four Madhabs, so what makes the difference between a Sahabi and scholar (who is capable to do Ijithad)?
Many of the companions such as the 4 rightly guided caliphs were also absolute Mujtahids.

Quote:
Regarding absolute and partial Ijithad: Why could one of the four Imams do absolute Ijithad and the other ones cannot do?
Because they are qualified to do so and others are not qualified to do so.

Quote:
I've heard many times from scholars (e.g. Sh. Salih al Fawzan) "We don't follow the madhab, but the evidence."
He does not mean that he has no madhab. He is Hanbali shyakh but what he meant that if there is a view outside his Madhab he will take it as he has the instruments that enable him to navigate the views of scholars.

Quote:
Sh. Ayman, I hope this does not make you angry or takes you time away. Barak Allah fik
Not at all. (smile).
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  #5  
Old 05-27-2011, 06:45 PM
Ayman bin khaled Ayman bin khaled is offline
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Originally Posted by Um Abdullah M. View Post
assalamu alaykum
وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

Quote:
Is there a difference if an opinion is agreed upon by the four madhhabs or differed upon? What I mean is, when you say that the truth cannot be outside of the 4 madhhabs, do you mean matters which the 4 madhhabs agreed upon, or even in matters which the madhhabs differed in it?
I was referring to all valid views within the Madhabs not only the official position of the Madhab.So, if someone brings forth a view that is considered invalid by the 4 Madhabs then such view is rejected with no second thinking.


Quote:
what about an opinion by a scholar of the salaf that was authentically transmited to us, one who was not from the four madhhabs?
If that happened then such view is with no doubt is invalid and an ugly error that is unlawful for anyone to follow. Keep in mind, scholars of the 4 Madhabs are from the Salaf and many of them lived around their times. So, if such view supposingly authentic yet they neither mention it or refute it then this makes it obvious that this view is wrong.

It is very rare but this has more to it than it seems. For example, Muta'khrin rely on chain of narrators only while early scholars relied on text and chains together. Also, there are reports reported from Salaf that deemed not true as they mentioned that such scholars changed their view afterward. Examples are too many to mention.

Quote:
I do not mean following his madhhab as it was not preserved, but I mean following one opinion of his which was authentically transmitted to us, and based on evidence, that is different than the views of the 4 imams on a matter that is not agreed upon?
It is impossible to happen. But if there was a proof then at least one of the 4 Madhabs gave weight to it. When all of them don't then that makes such "assumed" evidence weightless.

Wallahu A'lam
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  #6  
Old 05-27-2011, 06:47 PM
Ayman bin khaled Ayman bin khaled is offline
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Originally Posted by ibn al-Taalib View Post
Even better, which of the 4 Imams told people to blindly follow them?
This statement was said to scholars and Mujtahids not laypeople.

Quote:
And since there's so much ikhtilaaf between them in a lot of issues, why don't the scholars of today (may Allah(swt) increase their knowledge and guide them and accept their works amen) resolve to fix these contradictions with authentic hadiths of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم rather than leaving the people in a state where they can't even agree on exactly how to pray?
No scholar ever imposed his own Madhab on someone who follows another Madhab. Thus, people should understand that scholars do not mind valid differences as they only warn against invalid ones.

Wallahu A'lam
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  #7  
Old 05-27-2011, 08:19 PM
Zeshan Zeshan is offline
 
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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله

An Ashari/Maturidi wrote that these scholars are the last authority within the four Madhabs:

''Imam Hafsaki, Ibn Abidīn, Marghinānī, Nabulsi, al-Qayrawānī, al-Jundi, al-Bayhaqi, ibn Hajar al-Asqalānī, al-Khatib al-Baghdādī, ibn Qudama al-Maqdisī, Shams a-Dīn Muflih.''

1. Is this true?
2. How do scholars decide if someone is an authority in a Madhab? And what if scholars differ on this?

Jazakallah Khayr for answering.
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  #8  
Old 05-28-2011, 08:53 AM
Abu Salaf Abu Salaf is offline
 
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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله

Barak Allah fik for taking time to answer my questions.



Quote:
Those who you refer to as more than four Madhabs such as Sufyan, al-Awza'ie and etc were Absolute Mujtahid. That said, you should draw a line between the era 1000 years ago where Mujtahid existed and nowadays where no absolute Mujtahid can be.
Hm, what I do not get is how absolute Ijithad works. Could you please explain to me via an example (absolute and partial ijithad). Since they were also absolute Mujtahids and from Ahlu-sunnah, wouldn't be possible to follow one of those Madhabs?

Let's say, there is a Mujtahid who has the same amount of knowledge like Imam Ahmad - may Allah have mercy on him -, would the Mujtahid be an absolute Mujtahid?

And another question (maybe it sounds stupid, but I'll ask): how come we have only four madhabs remaining?

Quote:
He does not mean that he has no madhab. He is Hanbali shyakh but what he meant that if there is a view outside his Madhab he will take it as he has the instruments that enable him to navigate the views of scholars.
What are those instruments? And regarding the views of scholars: you said many times that Fiqh is not about to collect the sayings of scholars, but this is what I read in most of the Fatawa, and for example regarding the veil you said that the Hanabilah are the only ones who say it's wajib, but I read many quotes from Maliki scholars who say that the face must be covered. Now, I don't doubt you or the like (please do not get me wrong), it is just how do we make conclusions from the quotes of the scholars?

Barak Allah fik
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  #9  
Old 05-28-2011, 10:55 AM
Ayman bin khaled Ayman bin khaled is offline
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Originally Posted by Abu Salaf View Post
Hm, what I do not get is how absolute Ijithad works. Could you please explain to me via an example (absolute and partial ijithad). Since they were also absolute Mujtahids and from Ahlu-sunnah, wouldn't be possible to follow one of those Madhabs?
Absolute Ijtihad means someone comes with a new Madhab and new accepted principles. This is impossible because such science has settled and all reliance is now on these principles. Let me simplify it to you, Can a person today invent an airplane without relying on the concept and laid down principles of manfufacturing airplanes? No. But a person can develop it so what he did he just added a new value to the concept without compromising the laid down rules.

Quote:
Let's say, there is a Mujtahid who has the same amount of knowledge like Imam Ahmad - may Allah have mercy on him -, would the Mujtahid be an absolute Mujtahid?
There is none.

Quote:
And another question (maybe it sounds stupid, but I'll ask): how come we have only four madhabs remaining?
This is from the Mercy of Allah and if you ask for the reasons is because students of these Mujtahid did not spread their Madhabs just how these four did.


Quote:
What are those instruments?
Too lengthy to mention but they exceed the 30 requirment.

Quote:
And regarding the views of scholars: you said many times that Fiqh is not about to collect the sayings of scholars, but this is what I read in most of the Fatawa, and for example regarding the veil you said that the Hanabilah are the only ones who say it's wajib, but I read many quotes from Maliki scholars who say that the face must be covered.
Actually, the four Madhab state face as permessible to show but there is an existing view in the Hanbali Madhab that makes it obligatory. It is a lengthy topic and neither time nor place allows me to address it. The maliki say that when Fitna exists which is what all other scholars say from four Madhabs.


Quote:
it is just how do we make conclusions from the quotes of the scholars?
This task is not for laypeople. That is why we refer to people of knowledge to verify statements and meanings.

Wallahu A'lam
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  #10  
Old 05-28-2011, 01:08 PM
abu_umayza abu_umayza is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ayman bin khaled View Post
Absolute Ijtihad means someone comes with a new Madhab and new accepted principles. This is impossible because such science has settled and all reliance is now on these principles.
Asalaamu alaikum, I would like to take a case example of Ibn Taymiyyah. I believe like many that he was mujtahid mutlaq, yet he chose to operate within the premise of the Hanbali madhab for the majority of the part. Had he decided to amend or introduce new principles within the madhab, he was qualified to do so and not only that, there would have been general acceptance and a large following of him. Some have gone farther to suggest that had he developed a new "madhab" (to an extent), he was again qualified to do so.

My question therefore, May Allah bless you, would be: "If a section of the ummah accepted these new principles (either as an amendment or extension of the madhab [or even as an entirely new madhab]), would they in actual fact be considered 'valid' or acceptable according to your understanding of the matter of absolute ijtihad?" There is some research into the evidence of the former (i.e. his introduction of new principles within the madhab).

Allah knows best.
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Old 05-28-2011, 01:13 PM
Abu Salaf Abu Salaf is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ayman bin khaled View Post
Absolute Ijtihad means someone comes with a new Madhab and new accepted principles. This is impossible because such science has settled and all reliance is now on these principles. Let me simplify it to you, Can a person today invent an airplane without relying on the concept and laid down principles of manfufacturing airplanes? No. But a person can develop it so what he did he just added a new value to the concept without compromising the laid down rules.
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله

Now I understand it alhamdulillah. Do the four Madhabs use also the principles of the other Madhabs (Imam al Awza'i, Imam at Tabari, Imam Dawud etc.)?

So, whenever a view is not within the four Madhabs, this means, their laid down principles were not used?

Would a scholar be blamed if he chooses as his Madhab one of the non-existing madhabs?


Quote:
Too lengthy to mention but they exceed the 30 requirment.
Sounds complex. I'd better leave it insha'Allah


Quote:
Actually, the four Madhab state face as permessible to show but there is an existing view in the Hanbali Madhab that makes it obligatory. It is a lengthy topic and neither time nor place allows me to address it. The maliki say that when Fitna exists which is what all other scholars say from four Madhabs.
My point was not to discuss weather obligatory or not, all I wanted to know was how we conclude a final ruling from the sayings of scholars. But it's too complex for me to comprehend and nothing for laymen so I leave it.

Two final questions insha'allah: which one is the easiest madhab to learn? and who was the most knowledgeable Imam amongst the four ones?

Barak Allah fik for clarifying.
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  #12  
Old 05-28-2011, 01:59 PM
Ayman bin khaled Ayman bin khaled is offline
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Originally Posted by abu_umayza View Post
I would like to take a case example of Ibn Taymiyyah. I believe like many that he was mujtahid mutlaq, yet he chose to operate within the premise of the Hanbali madhab for the majority of the part. Had he decided to amend or introduce new principles within the madhab, he was qualified to do so and not only that, there would have been general acceptance and a large following of him. Some have gone farther to suggest that had he developed a new "madhab" (to an extent), he was again qualified to do so.
It is true he was viewed by some scholars as Mujtahid Mutlaq but that is not an agreed on matter to use as the basis of a discussion neverthless all scholars agree on his vast knowledge. Also, he is known by all that he is a Hanbali scholar. So, he operated within the Madhab but did not restrict himself to it. But he never laid down any new principles! He may adopted new views but the principles are known and settled.

Quote:
My question therefore, May Allah bless you, would be: "If a section of the ummah accepted these new principles (either as an amendment or extension of the madhab [or even as an entirely new madhab]), would they in actual fact be considered 'valid' or acceptable according to your understanding of the matter of absolute ijtihad?" There is some research into the evidence of the former (i.e. his introduction of new principles within the madhab).
Let me put it for you this way:

1- There is a difference between statements of the four Imams and the valid views existing within the 4 schools of the 4 Imams. I refer to the latter when I say the fatwa should exist in it so it be valid.

2- Each Madhab has its own principles so if a scholar uses any of these madhabs principles then surely he will reach one of the concluded views said by scholars before since origins are one. If one comes to a conclusion never existed before then he is either mistaken or used different principles. If 2 people walk in one path from A to D the both of them will have to reach same destination.

Wallahu A'lam
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  #13  
Old 05-29-2011, 03:29 AM
abu_umayza abu_umayza is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ayman bin khaled View Post
but that is not an agreed on matter to use as the basis of a discussion
Jazakallah khair, so essentially it is about having unanimity? And since it is quite impossible to have unanimity within Ahlus-Sunnah - as we do about the four imams and their respective madhabs (after their time-period) - then it is a waste of time to speak about absolute ijtihad nowadays when it practically can not exist.

My final question thus is: "If there remains nothing new that can be said in the field of usool al-fiqh and if ijtihad of usool (fi shar') is not subject to change - then can it continue to be refined and/or extrapolated to suit modern contexts and address unique situations that arise therein?" If the answer is yes, then would this not (to an extent) be considered independent ijtihad, especially if the extrapolation leads to a new principle being formed?

Asalamu alaikum.
.
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Old 05-29-2011, 05:46 AM
Ayman bin khaled Ayman bin khaled is offline
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Originally Posted by abu_umayza View Post
Jazakallah khair, so essentially it is about having unanimity? And since it is quite impossible to have unanimity within Ahlus-Sunnah - as we do about the four imams and their respective madhabs (after their time-period) - then it is a waste of time to speak about absolute ijtihad nowadays when it practically can not exist.
As I mentioned before, we should draw a line between what is possible in theory and what is not in reality. We cannot say there will be no Mujtahid Mutlaq in theory because this is a bless from Allah gives it to whoever He wants. However, if one measure people of knowledge today against the set criterion of Mujtahid Mutlaq then he will realize that there are none. That said, we said there might be a Mujtahid Juz'ie but they must operate within any of the 4 Madhabs because they will never be able to conclude the Furo' without relying on the laid down Usool.

Important point to keep in mind is that Madhab does not mean fatwa but it means a set of rules and principles that upon a person can utilize to conclude rulings. So, if someone comes today and start gives his own rulings on matters without having a stable rules then this will mean contradictions and instability of views. So, in order to have a Madhab then it means the fatwa of its founder should be preserved, as it happened with the four Imams, and their Usool are known so their students and muhaqiqeen to use to verify the accuracy of the Imam's fatwa. That is why in many cases the Muhaqiqeen of the Madhab differ with the Imams of the Madhabs they follow not because they just felt like to but rather because they put the Imam's fatwa against their own principles and then verified it all.
Quote:
My final question thus is: "If there remains nothing new that can be said in the field of usool al-fiqh and if ijtihad of usool (fi shar') is not subject to change - then can it continue to be refined and/or extrapolated to suit modern contexts and address unique situations that arise therein?" If the answer is yes, then would this not (to an extent) be considered independent ijtihad, especially if the extrapolation leads to a new principle being formed?
Usool can never change but Foroo' can be. Also, one should understand that some of the laid down Usool are flexible such as the principle of dar' al-Mafasid as this principle is used depending on the era and norm of the society. So, what can be refined and be flexible is not the actual principles but the way they are used so long such principles depend on variables. For example, one cannot say, my principles are, in order, as it follows, Ijmaa then Sunna then scholars views then Quran!!

As for Furu' they are flexible if they are about new matters but still same Usool will be applied.

We do not obligate people to follow the official position of each Madhab or the view of the four Imams. Rather, we obligate people to follow the valid views existing in the four Madhabs because whatever is outside these 4 Madhabs are wrong and invalid regardless who said it and that will be a mistake that a scholar made that he is excused for but unlawful for us to follow.

Wallahu A'lam
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  #15  
Old 06-01-2011, 07:28 PM
Abu Salaf Abu Salaf is offline
 
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Push insha'Allah http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showp...4&postcount=11
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Old 06-02-2011, 04:45 AM
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Ahki Ayman can you provide with names of scholars over the years who were Mujtahid Mutlaq.
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