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  #1  
Old 10-06-2012, 04:59 PM
Bassam Zawadi Bassam Zawadi is offline
 
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Default Devastating Anti-Ashari Claim of Abdullah ibn Al-Mubarak (d. 181 A.H.) (OUCH, this is going to hurt the Asharis)

Please bear in mind who Abdullah ibn Al-Mubarak is.


Moving on to the narration at hand....


'Uthman Ad-Daarimi in his refutation to Al-Marisi states:

Quote:
روى إسحاق بن إبراهيم الحنظلي عن ابن المبارك أنه قال رأس المنارة أقرب إلى الله من أسفله

Ishaq bin Ibraheem Al-Handhali narrated that Ibn Al-Mubarak said: The top of the minaret is closer to Allah than it's bottom.

The Isnad:

Ishaq bin Ibraheem Al-Handhali (d. 238 A.H.) (who is more famously known as Ishaq bin Rahawaih) was born in 161 A.H. and he used to report from Abdullah ibn Al-Mubarak.

Ishaq's reliability needs no presentation.

'Uthman ad-Daarimi was born before 200 A.H. and he used to report from Ishaq.

Ad-Daarimi's reliability requires no presentation as well.


Conclusion: The isnad is saheeh.


The Matn:

Do I really need to explain how this demonstrates how Ibn Al-Mubarak believed in the very literal 'Uluww of Allah? He says that the top of the minaret is closer to Allah than the bottom. How much clearer could it get?

Even if he is wrong in making this claim, that doesn't matter. You know why? What matters is that this example of his (whether right or wrong) clearly demonstrates that he at least believed in the very literal 'Uluww of Allah.


The Shame & Deception of GF Haddad:

GF Haddad a few years ago came out with this book (which by the way has been addressed over here).

On page 213 of the book, under footnote no. 371 GF Haddad tries to paint 'Uthman ad-Daarimi as an anthropomorphist.

Guess what?

He cites the statement of Abdullah ibn Al-Mubarak as a proof of this alleged anthropomorphism. But what's the problem? The problem is that GF Haddad doesn't state that this is the statement of Abdullah ibn Al-Mubarak, rather he makes it out to be that this is the statement of ad-Daarimi!!!

What sheer dishonesty!!! He clearly didn't have the guts to label ibn Al-Mubarak as an anthropomorphist.

I have attached a picture of GF Haddad's words. Clearly, you could see how he failed to mention that those were the words of ibn Al-Mubarak!


Oh Asharis and Maturidis Bid ibn Al-Mubarak Farewell:

It really hurts deep down inside to see such a pillar of the Hanafi madhab utter such "blasphemous" and "anthropomorphic" words, doesn't it? It kills you deep down inside, right?

With what has been demonstrated in this post and demonstrated over here and here as well, you could kiss ibn Al-Mubarak good bye, since he is one radical "Wahhabi Hanafi"!
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  #2  
Old 10-06-2012, 05:04 PM
Abu Yunus Abu Yunus is offline
 
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The top of the minaret is where the Adhan is called.
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  #3  
Old 10-06-2012, 05:10 PM
Bassam Zawadi Bassam Zawadi is offline
 
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Naah dude....... your not going to get all "spiritual" and "metaphorical" on me now.

'Uthman ad-Daarimi understood what those words meant.

GF Haddad (an opponent) also did. GF Haddad could have tried to refute ad-Daarimi's appeal to Ibn Al-Mubarak on this, but he didn't.

So don't even bother Abu Yunus. Ain't gonna happen
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  #4  
Old 10-06-2012, 05:12 PM
Abu Yunus Abu Yunus is offline
 
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The top of the minaret is literally where the Adhan is called.
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  #5  
Old 10-06-2012, 05:13 PM
Bassam Zawadi Bassam Zawadi is offline
 
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And....... the point you are making isss............?

I see where you are trying to go with this. So just spill it out.
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  #6  
Old 10-06-2012, 05:16 PM
Abu Yunus Abu Yunus is offline
 
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Do you think this narration is going to change an old debate?
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  #7  
Old 10-06-2012, 05:18 PM
Bassam Zawadi Bassam Zawadi is offline
 
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No, but it will strengthen the eemaan of Salafis and expose how Asharis oppose the righteous Salaf.

I don't expect much to change, since too many are brainwashed and aren't sincere truth seekers anyways.
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  #8  
Old 10-06-2012, 05:18 PM
Bassam Zawadi Bassam Zawadi is offline
 
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So tell me.... what is the significance of your comment:

Quote:
The top of the minaret is literally where the Adhan is called.
What are you trying to get at?
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  #9  
Old 10-06-2012, 05:22 PM
Um Abdullah M. Um Abdullah M. is offline
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assalamu alaykum

Ibn al Mubarak rahimahullah's statement is to be understood according to his other statements regarding Allah's Elevation. His other statements point to a literal elevation/uluw and not metaphorical.

Ibn Al-Mubarak (d 181 H.) : Ali Ibn al-Hasan Ibn Shaqeeq reported: I asked Abdullah Ibn al-Mubarak: “How are we to know our Lord –Azza wa Jal-? ”
He replied: «He is over the seventh Heaven over His Throne. We do not say as the Jahmiyyah say: that He is here on the earth.» (8) Sahih.
In another narration he said: «That He is above the seventh Heaven, on the Throne, separate from His creation.» (9) Its grading: Hasan.

_______
(8) “As-Sunnah “ by Abdullah bin Ahmad (1/111) with a sahih chain.
(9) Ar-Rad `Ala alJahmiyyah by Ad-Darimi (40) with a hasan chain.




Are the Statements of the Pious Salaf -on Allah's Elevation- About Status ?


.
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  #10  
Old 10-06-2012, 05:34 PM
Abu Yunus Abu Yunus is offline
 
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Wa alaikum us-salamu wa rahmatullah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Um Abdullah M. View Post
Ibn Al-Mubarak (d 181 H.) : Ali Ibn al-Hasan Ibn Shaqeeq reported: I asked Abdullah Ibn al-Mubarak: “How are we to know our Lord –Azza wa Jal-? ”
He replied: «He is over the seventh Heaven over His Throne. We do not say as the Jahmiyyah say: that He is here on the earth.» (8) Sahih.
In another narration he said: «That He is above the seventh Heaven, on the Throne, separate from His creation.» (9) Its grading: Hasan.
These statements are ultimately decisive, since in meaning they are transmitted from the Righteous Salaf en masse.
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  #11  
Old 10-06-2012, 05:37 PM
Bassam Zawadi Bassam Zawadi is offline
 
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And how about what I presented from Ibn Al-Mubarak? You didn't get back to me on the significance of your post.
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  #12  
Old 10-06-2012, 05:44 PM
Abu Yunus Abu Yunus is offline
 
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My point was that the lone evidence is not decisive.

I would suggest that you concentrate on the decisive statements transmitted en masse.

However, if your intent was to properly expose academic fraud, then there is benefit in that.
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  #13  
Old 10-06-2012, 05:46 PM
Bassam Zawadi Bassam Zawadi is offline
 
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Quote:
My point was that the lone evidence is not decisive.
I agree with you, that it is not decisive from a Shariah point of view. It wasn't my intention to argue that since Abdullah ibn Al-Mubarak said this, then it means that Salafis are right.

My only intention was to show that this is the aqeedah of Abdullah ibn Al-Mubarak. That is all. And I am arguing that now Maturidis and Asharis really have no choice but to be consistent and accuse Ibn al-Mubarak of blasphemy as they do with us "Wahhabies".
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  #14  
Old 10-06-2012, 05:50 PM
Abu Yunus Abu Yunus is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassam Zawadi View Post
And I am arguing that now Maturidis and Asharis really have no choice but to be consistent and accuse Ibn al-Mubarak of blasphemy as they do with us "Wahhabies".
I am not convinced by this.

Perhaps try it out and brief us on how you get on.
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  #15  
Old 10-06-2012, 05:52 PM
Bassam Zawadi Bassam Zawadi is offline
 
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It seems like you are the one who needs convincing my friend. You try it out and see what happens.
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  #16  
Old 10-06-2012, 05:54 PM
Abu Yunus Abu Yunus is offline
 
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I just don't see them disavowing Ibn al-Mubarak on the basis of that evidence.
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  #17  
Old 10-06-2012, 05:57 PM
Bassam Zawadi Bassam Zawadi is offline
 
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Yeah, they probably won't because they aren't consistent.
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  #18  
Old 10-06-2012, 06:26 PM
Abu Yunus Abu Yunus is offline
 
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Bassam, why would they accept a narration from Uthman al-Darimi on this issue when they consider him an anthropomorphist?

Like I said, I would suggest that you concentrate on the decisive statements transmitted en masse.
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  #19  
Old 10-06-2012, 06:28 PM
Bassam Zawadi Bassam Zawadi is offline
 
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Quote:
Bassam, why would they accept a narration from Uthman al-Darimi when they consider him an anthropomorphist?
Did the scholars of Jarh wal Ta'deel cast such aspersions on him? No, they didn't.

We could then turn it around on them and ask why we should accept narrations from those who hold their views.


Sorry, but this is not how objectivity works.
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  #20  
Old 10-06-2012, 06:47 PM
Abu Yunus Abu Yunus is offline
 
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Sorry for my scepticism, Bassam.

But sometimes I wonder how many years of my life were wasted because people approached me about more peripheral issues (using a Misbahah or not, doing loud Dhikr or not, following a Methheb or not), rather than going straight for the core issues based on decisive evidences.

May Allah forgive me and guide me on the straight path.
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