Some Arguments That Shias Give Regarding the Topic of Fadak

[Bassam Zawadi]

I am going to need some assistance dealing with three arguments that the Shias give surrounding this topic.


Argument 1: Why didn’t the Prophet tell Fatima before he died that he wasn't going to bequeath Fadak to her?

The Shi'i said:

I was once arguing with a Sunni about the question of Fadak. I posed him the question: “Do you agree that Fatima (as) was angry at Abu Bakr over Fadak?” To which he replied: “Yes, of course,” for there is no doubt about this, and not a single Sunni ‘alim has ever denied it. I then asked: “Do you think it is rational to believe that the Prophet (s) never got around to telling Fatima (as) that she was not going to get one penny of inheritance from her father? Would not any sane, loving father (much less the Prophet of Islam (s)) tell his daughter about this at some point in her life?” To which he responded: “Well, the Prophet (s) was very busy. Maybe he forgot.”

Argument 2: If the Prophet was not supposed to leave any inheritance to his family, then why did his wives keep the houses that they lived in?

The Shi'i said:

Proof Five - The wives of the Prophet (s) inheriting their apartments from Rasulullah (s) proves that the Hadeeth 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we leave is Sadaqah' is false

If the Hadeeth 'whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqah' is correct then why did Abu Bakr not take possession of the homes belonging to Ayesha, Hafsa and the other wives of the Prophet (s) that they had attained as inheritance upon the death of the Prophet (s)? It is a fact that these properties belonged to Rasulullah (s) and his wives attained them (s) as inheritance after his death.

See: Wafa al Wafa ba Khabr Da Mustafa Part 1 page 325 Bab al Rabba Fasl al Thasa

Argument 3: Why did Fatima die while she was still angry with Abu Bakr?

This clearly seems like such a serious issue. Why did Fatima die while still angry with Abu Bakr? Also, why be so angry over a materialistic issue? is there more to this that we don't know?

[Hanbali]

Originally Posted by Bassam Zawadi

I am going to need some assistance dealing with three arguments that the Shias give surrounding this topic.


Argument 1: Why didn’t the Prophet tell Fatima before he died that he wasn't going to bequeath Fadak to her?

I can safely say that my parents have never ever talked about inheritance with me, and I've never asked them about it. It's the last thing on my mind. It would be morbid to ask them.

When my grandfather died, there were squabbles in the family over the inheritance. But this all happened AFTER he died. Before he died, nobody talked to him about what they are inheriting. Can you imagine asking your father "will you give me such and such after you die"??? The response would be "beta (son), are you waiting for me to die so you can take my things?"

Therefore, it is very likely that the topic never came up and I see no issue with that.

In fact, why didn't the Prophet [s] have a will? The Rawaafidh ask US that, but he was alive for a few days after the event of the paper and pen. Why didn't he write in that time? Especially if it was AN OBLIGATION! Especially if he was alone in the room away from the shaykhain at that time! According to Shias, the Prophet [s] was alone with Ali [ra] and Ibn Abbas [ra] (or was it Abbas [ra] ?) after the incident of paper and pen. Why didn't he write it for them then? Especially if he [s]--according to their idiotic doctrine--knew the future? If the Prophet [s] KNEW that the Shaykhain would steal the property, then why didn't he MAKE SURE TO write the will? If that is the case, then the fault is on the Prophet [s]. That is what the shias are implying.

Argument 3: Why did Fatima die while she was still angry with Abu Bakr?

This clearly seems like such a serious issue. Why did Fatima die while still angry with Abu Bakr? Also, why be so angry over a materialistic issue? is there more to this that we don't know?

Even if she did die angry, so what? Abu Bakr [ra] is superior to her (may Allah [swt] preserve her), so if they want to ask a question, they should ask it the other way around.

[Hanbali]

There is another issue here, bro bassam.

The rawaafidh actually claim that fadak was a gift, NOT part of the inheritance. According to them, she only asked for it as inheritance after it was taken away from her and people denied that it was a gift for her. That is their claim, i.e. that she switched claims from gift to inheritance.

I dont know if this helps us or complicates it for us. Just wanted to throw it out there.

Wouldnt this negate their question? Since they dont actually claim it was part of inheritance so why are they demanding us to answer why the Prophet [s] didnt tell her that it was not a part of her inheritance? Because accordign to them it wasn't.

(Actually, the shias are inconsistent...sometimes they claim it is a gift, other times inheritance...they switch it depending on whatever is best to win an argument)

[Bassam Zawadi]

so why did Fatima not believe the trustworthy Sahabah when they said that the Prophet didn't want to give it away?

[Hanbali]

Originally Posted by Bassam Zawadi

so why did Fatima not believe the trustworthy Sahabah when they said that the Prophet didn't want to give it away?

just like you and ustadh ayman debate, you and i debate, etc.

I dont see what the big deal is. It was never a big issue for me. But I guess we have to deal with it since it might be a big deal to others.

MY point has always been that if the shias make it a big deal, it only makes Fatima [ra] look bad, not Abu Bakr [ra].

But I guess they counter this by saying that fadak was more than a garden, rather it was instrumental in empowering ahl al bayt.

but ehsan elahi zaheer says that at the time, fatima [ra] had 9 other gardens!!! (dont remember if it was exactly nine, but thats from memory)....but i mean, if she had 9, then how would 1 more make the difference between poverty and empowerment? Remember the shias claim that the garden of fadak was what impoverished ahl al bayt and made it impossible for them to politically counter the shaykhain ...but if she had 9 other gardens, then this sinks their boat.

i forgot which one of ehsan elahi's books it was, but he listed all the other gardens...

[Farid Alkhajah]

Argument 3: Why did Fatima die while she was still angry with Abu Bakr?

This clearly seems like such a serious issue. Why did Fatima die while still angry with Abu Bakr? Also, why be so angry over a materialistic issue? is there more to this that we don't know?

أن علي بن أبي طالب خطب بنت أبي جهل . وعنده فاطمة بنت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم . فلما سمعت بذلك فاطمة أتت النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقالت له : إن قومك يتحدثون أنك لا تغضب لبناتك . وهذا علي ، ناكحا ابنة أبي جهل . قال المسور : فقام النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فسمعته حين تشهد . ثم قال " أما بعد . فإني أنكحت أبا العاص ابن الربيع . فحدثني فصدقني . وإن فاطمة بنت محمد مضغة مني . وأنما أكره أن يفتنوها . وإنها ، والله ! لا تجتمع بنت رسول الله وبنت عدو الله عند رجل واحد أبدا " . قال ، فترك علي الخطبة .
الراوي: المسور بن مخرمة المحدث: مسلم - المصدر: المسند الصحيح - الصفحة أو الرقم: 2449
خلاصة الدرجة: صحيح

[Efendi]

Salam alaykum wa rahmatullahi Taala wa barakatu.

Well, the issue of Fadak is a weakest one in shia belief. Because actually all of their claims could be easily refuted.

Regarding 1 claim, brother Hanbali answer should be sufficient.

As for the second one:

If the Prophet was not supposed to leave any inheritance to his family, then why did his wives keep the houses that they lived in?

There is a difference beween nafaqa (i think that's correct in arabic) and inheritance.

Argument 3: Why did Fatima die while she was still angry with Abu Bakr?

Even if she died when she was still angry, that doesn't change anything. She was a simple human, that could err.

Second there is a narration in "Siyar alamun nubala" that she forgived, or actually become reconciled with Abu Bakr, short before she passed.
Few words regarding version o gift. As far as i seen, each and every narration with version of gift in our sources are coming via Atiya Awfe, and he's shii, weak, mudalas.

Wa Allahu Alam.

[Efendi]

Kulayni narrated in "Kafi":


Translation:
"Muhammad ibn al-Hassan and Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad and Muhammad ibn Yahya from Ahmad ibn Muhammad, all from Ja’far ibn Muhammad al-Ash’ari from 'Abdullah ibn Maymun al-Qaddah and Ali ibn Ibrahim from his father from Hammad ibn ‘Isa from al-Qaddah from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.
"The holy Prophet :s: has said, ‘If one sets out on a journey to seek knowledge Allah will lead him to the way that would take him to paradise. The angels will stretch their wings for the pleasure of the seeker of knowledge and all that is in the heavens and earth even the whales in the oceans will ask forgiveness for him (from Allah). The excellence of the scholar over other people is like that of the moon over other stars during a full-moon night. The scholars are the heirs of the prophets. The prophets did not leave any Dirham or Dinar (wealth) as their legacy but they did leave knowledge as their legacy. Whoever acquires a share from such legacy has gained a very large share.’"


And as Khomayni stated in "Hukumat":



Translation of marked part:
"The links in the chain of transmission of this tradition are all trustworthy"

And also this narration:
Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (‘a) said: ‘The scholars are the heirs of the prophets, for although the prophets bequeathed not a single dinar or dirham, they bequeathed their sayings and traditions. Whoever, then, acquires a portion of their traditions has indeed acquired a generous portion of their legacy. Therefore, see from whom you may acquire this knowledge, for among us, the Family of the Prophet, there are in each generation just and honest people who will repel those who distort and exaggerate, those who initiate false practices, and those who offer foolish interpretations [that is, they will purify and protect religion from the influence of such biased and ignorant people and others like them].’” [Kulayni, al-Kafi, I, 78-79. ]

And have this one on-line "Kafi" by Kulayni vol 1, p 32

2 - محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن محمد بن خالد، عن أبي البختري، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال: إن العلماء ورثة الانبياء وذاك أن الانبياء لم يورثوا درهما ولا دينارا، وانما اورثوا أحاديث من أحاديثهم، فمن أخذ بشئ منها فقد أخذ حظا وافرا، فانظروا علمكم هذا عمن تأخذونه؟ فإن فينا أهل البيت في كل خلف عدولا ينفون عنه تحريف الغالين، وانتحال المبطلين، وتأويل الجاهلين.

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Muhammad ibn Khalid from abu al-Bakhtari from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.
"The scholars are the heirs of the prophets because the prophets did not leave any Dirham or Dinar, (units of money) as their legacy. What they left was certain pieces of their statements. Those who acquired anything of these pieces of their statements they have certainly gained a large share. You must be very careful, when acquiring such knowledge, to see from what kinds of people you receive them. Among us (the Ahlul Bayt, family of the holy Prophet s.a.) after every one there comes a just person who removes (and exposes) the forgeries of the exaggerators from it (knowledge), the infiltrated materials of the fallacious ones and the interpretations of the ignorant ones."

Regarding the authenticity of this hadith, ‘Allamah Muhammad Baqir Majlisi states in his commentary on al-Kafi, entitled Mir’at al-‘Uqul: [This] hadith has two chains of narration. The first is majhul [contains an unknown narrator], and the second is hasan or muwaththaq. [Together] they do not fall short of being sahih. (Mir’at al-‘Uqul, vol. 1 p. 111)


It is obvious for those who hold a bit of rationalism that he [saw] meant to say, the Prophet have no heirs to inherit wealth from them, what they leave behind is knowledge, and whoever picks knowledge is like the actual heir who inherits Dinars & Dirhams.

Al-Kafi of al-Kulaini, vol.1 p. 32
".......narrated Abul-Bukhturi, from al-Sadiq saying: Scholars are the heirs of Prophets, that's because Scholars did not leave behind for inheritance neither a Dirham nor a Dinar, rather they left for inheritance Ahadith of their sayings...."

Al-Kafi, vol.1, p.34
" ........al-Qaddaah, narrated Abu Abdullah, the Messenger [saw] said: Verily scholars are the heirs of the prophets, for prophets did not leave behind (as an inheritance) neither a Dinar nor a Dirham, rather they left knowledge as an inheritance....."

al-Mahaasin of al-Barqi, vol.1, pp 421-422
"....Abul-Hasan said: The Meseenger [saw] brought them what should be sufficient for them during his era, and what should be sufficient for them after him: The Book of Allah, and the Sunnah of His Prophet"

So clearly the distortion is in misunderstanding. The Ahadith are explicitly stating the Prophets leave no money or its worth for inheritance, but they do leave a knowledge, whoever picks it is actually an inheritor of the prophet.

The above ahadith do support the Hadith reported by Abu Bakr [ra] as well as his cause for keeping Fadak as a property for the State. Sure, had Abu Bakr[RA] or Omar [ra] inherited Fadak for their ownselves, charges would have a merit, but they managed it as a Sadaqah fi sabeelillah, and so did Ali [ra] when he became a Caliph.




And shia fiqh is another proof that Abu Bakr :ra: was right, when he refused to give Fadak to Fatima (r.a)
What is Fadak? A land? Yes, but in accordance to shia fiqh, woman doesn't inherit land!

Strike #1
In al-Kafi al-Kulayni has included a chapter entitled “Women do not inherit land”. In this chapter he narrates a hadith from Imam Muhammad al-Baqir, “Women do not inherit anything of land or fixed property.” (al-Kafi, vol. 7 p. 127, Kitab al-Mawarith, hadith no. 1)

#2
Al-Tusi in Tahdhib al-Ahkam, and al-Majlisi in Bihar al-Anwar have narrated from Maysarah that he asked Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq about what a woman inherits. The Imam replied: “They will get the value of the bricks, the building, the wood and the bamboo. As for the land and the fixed property, they will get no inheritance from that.” (Tahdhib al-Ahkam, vol. 9 p. 299; Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 104 p. 351)

#3
Al-Tusi records in Tahdhib al-Ahkam and al-Istibsar from Muhammad ibn Muslim that Imam Muhammad al-Baqir said: “A woman will not inherit anything of land and fixed property.” (Tahdhib al-Ahkam, vol. 9 p. 298; al-Istibsar, vol. 4 p. 152)

#4
He also records from ‘Abd al-Malik ibn A‘yan that either Imam Muhammad al-Baqir or Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq said: “Women will have nothing of houses or land.” (Tahdhib al-Ahkam, vol. 9 p. 299; Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 104 p. 351)

PS. Kattani in "Nazmul mutanaseera min al hadeethal mutawateera" wrote:

272- ‏(‏ لا نورث ما تركنا صدقة‏)‏‏.‏
- أورده في الأزهار من حديث ‏(‏1‏)‏ عمر ‏(‏2‏)‏ وعثمان ‏(‏3‏)‏ وعلي ‏(‏4‏)‏ وسعد بن أبي وقاص ‏(‏5‏)‏ والعباس ‏(‏6‏)‏ وأبي بكر الصديق ‏(‏7‏)‏ وعبد الرحمان بن عوف ‏(‏8‏)‏ والزبير بن العوام ‏(‏9‏)‏ وأبي هريرة ‏(‏10‏)‏ وعائشة ‏(‏11‏)‏ وطلحة ‏(‏12‏)‏ وحذيفة ‏(‏13‏)‏ وابن عباس ثلاثة عشر نفساً قال فقد رواه من العشرة المشهود لهم بالجنة ثمانية نظير حديث من كذب علي اهـ‏

"Narration that no one inherits from prophets, everything that they leave behind is for charity
Suyooti in "Azhar" reported it via:
1) Umar.
2) Uthmaan.
3) Ali.
4) Sad ibn Abi Vavvas
5) Abbas.
6) Abu Bakr.
7) Abdurrahman ibn Auf.
8) Zubayr ibn Awam.
9) Abu Hurayra.
10) Aisha
11) Talha
12) Huzayfa.
13) ibn Abbas.
13 sahaba in total
8 from "Ashara mubashara" reported this narration. So this hadeeth is close to "Who will lie upon me
....
Ibn Hajar in "Amaliya Muhraja ala muhtasaru ibnul Hajeeb al Asli" said: "This narration, is authetic and mutawateer"."..

So narration, isn't aahad. But saheeh and mutawateer.

[salafees_mainstream_muslims]

the answers to these questions have been answered in the book tohfa imamia, which answers the challenge of answering ansar of 20 questions, this question regarding fadak is one of then.

but this book is in urdu, so majoriy of pple her cannot refer here, im afraid i have to read and translate a 434 pages book, because those 20 questions were answered in 434 pages.

[Hanbali]

Originally Posted by salafees_mainstream_muslims

the answers to these questions have been answered in the book tohfa imamia, which answers the challenge of answering ansar of 20 questions, this question regarding fadak is one of then.

but this book is in urdu, so majoriy of pple her cannot refer here, im afraid i have to read and translate a 434 pages book, because those 20 questions were answered in 434 pages.

Can you translate it? Then we can put it up on the site.

[Al Kulayni]

Assalamu Aleykum

[ 12515 ] أخبرنا أبو عبد الله الحافظ ثنا أبو عبد الله محمد بن يعقوب الحافظ ثنا محمد بن عبد الوهاب ثنا عبدان بن عثمان العتكي بنيسابور ثنا أبو ضمرة عن إسماعيل بن أبي خالد عن الشعبي قال لما مرضت فاطمة رضى الله تعالى عنها أتاها أبو بكر الصديق رضى الله تعالى عنه فاستأذن عليها فقال علي رضى الله تعالى عنه يا فاطمة هذا أبو بكر يستأذن عليك فقالت أتحب أن آذن له قال نعم فأذنت له فدخل عليها يترضاها وقال والله ما تركت الدار والمال والأهل والعشيرة إلا ابتغاء مرضاة الله ومرضاة رسوله ومرضاتكم أهل البيت ثم ترضاها حتى رضيت هذا مرسل حسن بإسناد صحيح

When Fatima fell sick Abu Bakr Siddiq came and asked permission to see her. Ali said: "Fatima, here is Abu Bakr asking permission to see you." She said: "Would you like me to give him permission?" [1] He said yes, whereupon she gave him permission. He entered to see her, seeking her good pleasure, and said: "By Allah! I did not leave my house, property, family, and tribe except to please Allah, and to please His Prophet, and to please you, the People of the House (ahl al bayt)! He continued to seek her good pleasure until she was pleased." [2]

[1] Al-Dhahabi said in the Siyar (Al Arna'ut ed. 2:121): "She applied the Sunna by not giving permission to anyone to enter her husbands house except by his command."

[2] Bayhaqi in al Sunan al Kubra, Hasan Mursal (6:300-301) and Dala'il al-Nubuwwa (7:273-281) who said: "It is narrated with a fair (hasan) chain." Muhibb al Din al-Tabari cited it in al Riyad Al Nadira (2:96-97 #534) and Dhahabi in the Siyar (Ibid). Ibn Kathir states it as Sahih in his Al Bidayah and Ibn Hajar in his Fath Al Bari.

ويروي ابن الميثم الشيعي في شرح نهج البلاغة :

" إن أبا بكر قال لها : إن لك ما لأبيك ، كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله يأخذ من فدك قوتكم ، ويقسم الباقي ويحمل منه في سبيل الله ، ولك على الله أن أصنع بها كما كان يصنع ، فرضيت بذلك وأخذت العهد عليه به .
( شرح نهج البلاغة لابن ميثم البحراني ج5 ص 107 ط طهران

Ibn-i-Mitham writes in the context of interpreting Nahj-ul-Balaga: "Abu Bakr said to Fatima: Whatever belonged to your father, belongs to you as well. The Messenger of Allah kept something apart out of his personal share (fadak) and distributed the rest of it in the name of Allah. By Allah, I'll do with you what he used to do with you. Fatima was pleased to hear these words, a confirmation of the Prophetic practice" { Ibn-i-Mitham al-Buhrani, Sharh Nahj-ul-Balaga, Vol.5, P. 107,109 , Tehran **

[Al-Hajji]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

There is another issue here, bro bassam.

The rawaafidh actually claim that fadak was a gift, NOT part of the inheritance. According to them, she only asked for it as inheritance after it was taken away from her and people denied that it was a gift for her. That is their claim, i.e. that she switched claims from gift to inheritance.

I dont know if this helps us or complicates it for us. Just wanted to throw it out there.

Wouldnt this negate their question? Since they dont actually claim it was part of inheritance so why are they demanding us to answer why the Prophet [s] didnt tell her that it was not a part of her inheritance? Because accordign to them it wasn't.

(Actually, the shias are inconsistent...sometimes they claim it is a gift, other times inheritance...they switch it depending on whatever is best to win an argument)

actually what they say is that fadak was a gift but there were other lands which were inheritance

[Bassam Zawadi]

actually what they say is that fadak was a gift but there were other lands which were inheritance

But this still shows that they contradict themselves when they say that Fadak was a gift and then Fatimah claimed it was inheritance.

[Efendi]

Originally Posted by Al-Hajji

actually what they say is that fadak was a gift but there were other lands which were inheritance

As-Salamu alaykum.

I once have challenge them to give authentic proof that it was gift, and they fail to do that.
All narrations in our sources where Fadak was described as a gift, are running via Atiya al-Awfi. Shia mudalis, weak narrator with bad memory.

[Mutazili]

salam al manittaba3a al-huda

asslat wassalam ala muhammed wa alihi wa sahbihi al-muntajabeen.

the inheritence of the women are clear in shia fiqh : what is meant by women

don't inherit land is "the wives not the daughters "

we have a hadith sahih from man la yahdhuruhu al-faqeeh volume 4 saying this :

5750 وفي رواية الحسن بن محبوب، عن الاحول عن ابى عبدالله عليه السلام قال: سمعته يقول: (لايرثن النساء من العقار شيئا، ولهن قيمة البناء والشجر والنخل.
يعنى بالبناء الدور، وانماعنى من النساء الزوجة

in narration of hasan ibn mahboob from al-ahwal from abi abdilleh (as). al-ahwal said : i heard him saying (heard the imam(as) : the women don't inherit from land anything but they have the value of building and trees and palm-trees and he meant by building the houses and by women the wife .

the words of al-ahwal are clear that this is about wives not all women and al-ahwal is bigger than khomeini or anyone from maraji3 we have today and he's a giant of tashayu and he knows what the imam means and i say he must have heard it from the imam himself as he's not allowed to use opinion against the text.

the hadith is sahih because the traeeq of sadooq to hasan ibn mahboob is sahih.

and there's more hadiths sahih proving this.

wives of rasool allah inherited from him and there's no proof that these houses were given to them during rasool allah's life as far as i know so i require a hadith sahih proving they were nihla

i have proof that omar ibn khattab (ra) gave the wives of rasool allah (saww) from the inheritence from rasool allah(saww)

the hadith is from bukhari :

‏حدثنا ‏ ‏إبراهيم بن المنذر ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏أنس بن عياض ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عبيد الله ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏نافع ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏عبد الله بن عمر ‏ ‏رضي الله عنهما ‏ ‏أخبره ‏
‏أن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏عامل ‏ ‏خيبر ‏ ‏بشطر ما يخرج منها من ثمر أو زرع فكان يعطي أزواجه مائة ‏ ‏وسق ‏ ‏ثمانون ‏ ‏وسق ‏ ‏تمر وعشرون ‏ ‏وسق ‏ ‏شعير فقسم ‏ ‏عمر ‏ ‏خيبر ‏ ‏فخير أزواج النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏أن يقطع لهن من الماء والأرض أو يمضي لهن فمنهن من اختار الأرض ومنهن من اختار ‏ ‏الوسق ‏ ‏وكانت ‏ ‏عائشة ‏ ‏اختارت الأرض

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/D...Doc=0&Rec=3661

so according to this hadith the prophet(saww) used to give his wives from fruits etc from land of khaibar .. and when omar came he gave the wives of rasool allah the choice to take from the products or to choose the land and ayesha chose the land.

just edited to say : good luck !!!

[salafees_mainstream_muslims]

Originally Posted by Mutazili

salam al manittaba3a al-huda

asslat wassalam ala muhammed wa alihi wa sahbihi al-muntajabeen.

the inheritence of the women are clear in shia fiqh : what is meant by women

don't inherit land is "the wives not the daughters "

we have a hadith sahih from man la yahdhuruhu al-faqeeh volume 4 saying this :

5750 وفي رواية الحسن بن محبوب، عن الاحول عن ابى عبدالله عليه السلام قال: سمعته يقول: (لايرثن النساء من العقار شيئا، ولهن قيمة البناء والشجر والنخل.
يعنى بالبناء الدور، وانماعنى من النساء الزوجة

in narration of hasan ibn mahboob from al-ahwal from abi abdilleh (as). al-ahwal said : i heard him saying (heard the imam(as) : the women don't inherit from land anything but they have the value of building and trees and palm-trees and he meant by building the houses and by women the wife .

the words of al-ahwal are clear that this is about wives not all women and al-ahwal is bigger than khomeini or anyone from maraji3 we have today and he's a giant of tashayu and he knows what the imam means and i say he must have heard it from the imam himself as he's not allowed to use opinion against the text.

the hadith is sahih because the traeeq of sadooq to hasan ibn mahboob is sahih.

and there's more hadiths sahih proving this.

wives of rasool allah inherited from him and there's no proof that these houses were given to them during rasool allah's life as far as i know so i require a hadith sahih proving they were nihla

i have proof that omar ibn khattab (ra) gave the wives of rasool allah (saww) from the inheritence from rasool allah(saww)

the hadith is from bukhari :

‏حدثنا ‏ ‏إبراهيم بن المنذر ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏أنس بن عياض ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عبيد الله ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏نافع ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏عبد الله بن عمر ‏ ‏رضي الله عنهما ‏ ‏أخبره ‏
‏أن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏عامل ‏ ‏خيبر ‏ ‏بشطر ما يخرج منها من ثمر أو زرع فكان يعطي أزواجه مائة ‏ ‏وسق ‏ ‏ثمانون ‏ ‏وسق ‏ ‏تمر وعشرون ‏ ‏وسق ‏ ‏شعير فقسم ‏ ‏عمر ‏ ‏خيبر ‏ ‏فخير أزواج النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏أن يقطع لهن من الماء والأرض أو يمضي لهن فمنهن من اختار الأرض ومنهن من اختار ‏ ‏الوسق ‏ ‏وكانت ‏ ‏عائشة ‏ ‏اختارت الأرض

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/D...Doc=0&Rec=3661

so according to this hadith the prophet(saww) used to give his wives from fruits etc from land of khaibar .. and when omar came he gave the wives of rasool allah the choice to take from the products or to choose the land and ayesha chose the land.

just edited to say : good luck !!!

the sad news for you mr mutazili is that, your sahi narration present in al kafi authenticated by your scholars say that prophets do not leave dinar or dirhams as inheritance what they leave is knowledge......

So hz fatima(ra) seems that didnt knew about this narration which hz abubakar(ra) knew.....

Secondly again as usual you brought the idiocy from your pocket that narration does any where shows the word "inheritance" not at all, it your own misunderstanding and idiocy to consider that it was inheritance when its nowhere mentioned there.....

Because it was their own(wives) share as it was their own land from the time of prophet(saw) that is why hz umar(ra) asked what they want......

And we know that hz ali(ra) came to demand fadak , is there anywhere mentioned that he said that any of the khaliph that you gave inheritance to wives but how could you give it to wives of prophet(saw) ....... you bet you will not find because it wasnt the case you are trying to portray inorder to fool your ownself....

better luck next time, you need to try more hard inorder to deceive salafees wasil....

[Mutazili]

i answer some points for the benefits of readers :

we have sahih hadith that prophets don't leave dirham or dinar but leave knowldge and this was explained by shia : prophets are not preoccupied by gathering money and their most valuable inheritance is knowledge and this doesn't mean they don't leave inheritance apart from knowledge.

as for hadith from bukhari gave : it says clearly that the land was property of rasool allah during his life and wives got fruits and product from it and when he (saww) died then omar (ra) came later and asked the wives if they want land or products from the land and ayesha chose land > if this is not inheritance then what is it?

here's the hadith again for benefits of readers :

the hadith is from bukhari :

‏حدثنا ‏ ‏إبراهيم بن المنذر ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏أنس بن عياض ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عبيد الله ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏نافع ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏عبد الله بن عمر ‏ ‏رضي الله عنهما ‏ ‏أخبره ‏
‏أن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏عامل ‏ ‏خيبر ‏ ‏بشطر ما يخرج منها من ثمر أو زرع فكان يعطي أزواجه مائة ‏ ‏وسق ‏ ‏ثمانون ‏ ‏وسق ‏ ‏تمر وعشرون ‏ ‏وسق ‏ ‏شعير فقسم ‏ ‏عمر ‏ ‏خيبر ‏ ‏فخير أزواج النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏أن يقطع لهن من الماء والأرض أو يمضي لهن فمنهن من اختار الأرض ومنهن من اختار ‏ ‏الوسق ‏ ‏وكانت ‏ ‏عائشة ‏ ‏اختارت الأرض

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/D...Doc=0&Rec=3661

so according to this hadith the prophet(saww) used to give his wives from fruits etc from land of khaibar .. and when omar came he gave the wives of rasool allah the choice to take from the products or to choose the land and ayesha chose the land.


ps: alhamdulilleh i don't wish to deceive anyone and what i present is the truth as anyone can see. i'm not going to waste anymore time on kid who relies on others for information.

[salafees_mainstream_muslims]

Originally Posted by Mutazili

i answer some points for the benefits of readers :

we have sahih hadith that prophets don't leave dirham or dinar but leave knowldge and this was explained by shia : prophets are not preoccupied by gathering money and their most valuable inheritance is knowledge and this doesn't mean they don't leave inheritance apart from knowledge..

hah wow the readers should see here that how cleverly you are trying to get away from the strongest proof against you..... by saying this was explained by shia...(hahaha) you know why you said that? because you too know inside that this reason one of the most absurd and foolish answer for that hadees , Why?

Because the narration NEGATES...that existence of moeny as inheritance for prophets....it doesnt says that the most important inheritance is knowledge...BUT IT NEGATES THAT DINAR OR DIRHAM CAN BE INHERITANCE....

so the foolish attempt by you or the shia whom you are relying on was a fool and didnt even have brain to understand such a simple narration....

THIS NARRATION ITSELF IS PROOF THAT THE DECISION OF HZ ABUBAKAR(RA) WAS CORRECT AND NO SANE RAFIDI ON EARTH CAN CHALLENGE THIS...

And that is why we see that, for the most strongest point of ours you have just two lines ... and with irrelevant stuff you junk the thread just to derial the issue...what a pitty.

as for hadith from bukhari gave : it says clearly that the land was property of rasool allah during his life

This is the narration: Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 39, Number 521:

The Prophet concluded a contract with the people of Khaibar to utilize the land on the condition that half the products of fruits or vegetation would be their share. The Prophet used to give his wives one hundred Wasqs each, eighty Wasqs of dates and twenty Wasqs of barley. (When 'Umar became the Caliph) he gave the wives of the Prophet the option of either having the land and water as their shares, or carrying on the previous practice. Some of them chose the land and some chose the Wasqs, and 'Aisha chose the land.

NOW WHERE IS IT CLEARLY MENTIONED(AS YOU SAID) THAT THE LAND WAS PROPERTY OF RASOOL ALLAH(SAW) IN THIS NARRATION? (ONLY IF YOU ARE NOT DECEIVING US)

AND I WANT TO GIVE A MORE CLEAR HADEES THAT LAN OF KHAIBER EVEN BELONGED TO MUSLIMS.....

3.531:
Narrated Ibn `Umar: `Umar expelled the Jews and the Christians
from Hijaz. When Allah's Apostle had conquered Khaibar, he
wanted to expel the Jews from it as its land became the
property of Allah, His Apostle, and the Muslims. Allah's
Apostle intended to expel the Jews but they requested him to
let them stay there on the condition that they would do the
labor and get half of the fruits. Allah's Apostle told them,
"We will let you stay on thus condition, as long as we wish."
So, they (i.e. Jews) kept on living there until `Umar forced
them to go towards Taima' and Ariha'.

SO THIS IS STUFFCIENT TO CRUSH YOUR DECEPTION UNLESS YOU COME UP WITH YOUR SO CALLED CLEAR PROOF FROM HADEES.......

and wives got fruits and product from it and when he (saww) died then omar (ra) came later and asked the wives if they want land or products from the land and ayesha chose land > if this is not inheritance then what is it?

here's the hadith again for benefits of readers :

the hadith is from bukhari :

‏حدثنا ‏ ‏إبراهيم بن المنذر ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏أنس بن عياض ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عبيد الله ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏نافع ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏عبد الله بن عمر ‏ ‏رضي الله عنهما ‏ ‏أخبره ‏
‏أن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏عامل ‏ ‏خيبر ‏ ‏بشطر ما يخرج منها من ثمر أو زرع فكان يعطي أزواجه مائة ‏ ‏وسق ‏ ‏ثمانون ‏ ‏وسق ‏ ‏تمر وعشرون ‏ ‏وسق ‏ ‏شعير فقسم ‏ ‏عمر ‏ ‏خيبر ‏ ‏فخير أزواج النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏أن يقطع لهن من الماء والأرض أو يمضي لهن فمنهن من اختار الأرض ومنهن من اختار ‏ ‏الوسق ‏ ‏وكانت ‏ ‏عائشة ‏ ‏اختارت الأرض

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/D...Doc=0&Rec=3661

so according to this hadith the prophet(saww) used to give his wives from fruits etc from land of khaibar .. and when omar came he gave the wives of rasool allah the choice to take from the products or to choose the land and ayesha chose the land.


ps: alhamdulilleh i don't wish to deceive anyone and what i present is the truth as anyone can see. i'm not going to waste anymore time on kid who relies on others for information.

This is what deception is.....

You try to insert things in narrations which are not present there......

This incident is about when hz umar(ra) became khaliph... did this happened just after death of prophet(Saw) ? if it was taken as inheritance why wasnt it given just after the death of prophet(Saw)?


BUt mutazili if you are here to learn and try for it...because the fact is that land was already the share of wives, which was under the contract with jews that is why half of the vegetation WAS DISTRIBUTED ONLY AMONG WIVES.....

Thus when hz umar(ra) became the caliph he didnt give it as inheritance to the wives... But as their own property...

More over why are you afarid to answer that, IS THERE ANYWHERE MENTIONED THAT HZ ALI(RA) AGAIN CAME TO hZ UMAR(RA) NOW WITH A SOLID REASON THAT HE GAVE LAND TO HZ AYESHA AND OTHER WIVES?(when for the first time he was denied)

[seekthetruth]

Originally Posted by salafees_mainstream_muslims

the sad news for you mr
So hz fatima(ra) seems that didnt knew about this narration which hz abubakar(ra) knew.....

I think this is a good point. As I always heard from shiias that Abu Bakr r.a fabricated the hadith etc in order to take the land from Fatima r.a. However, if this hadith is also authentic to shiias (although they have a different understanding of what it means), then this proves that Abu Bakr r.a did not fabricate any hadith, and he actually heard this from the prophet s.a.w.

Why do the shia versions of this story say that Fatima r.a was angry at Abu Bakr r.a for fabricating the hadith etc....when infact, according to what i've learned in this thread....the only conclusions would be that:

1. Fatima r.a did not know of this hadith.
2. Fatima r.a tries to correct Abu Bakr r.a on his understanding of this sahih hadith.

[ahlussunnah]

3.531:
Narrated Ibn `Umar: `Umar expelled the Jews and the Christians
from Hijaz. When Allah's Apostle had conquered Khaibar, he
wanted to expel the Jews from it as its land became the
property of Allah, His Apostle, and the Muslims. Allah's
Apostle intended to expel the Jews but they requested him to
let them stay there on the condition that they would do the
labor and get half of the fruits. Allah's Apostle told them,
"We will let you stay on thus condition, as long as we wish."
So, they (i.e. Jews) kept on living there until `Umar forced
them to go towards Taima' and Ariha'.

I was once reading "Tarikh Ahl-e-Hadith" vol.1, by Dr. Baha'uddeen where he mention a debate between shia scholars and sunni ahle hadith scholars. That debate was named munazara Rangpur. There it was mention that first ahle hadith scholars asked shi'i to tell whether the land of Fadak was fai' or not. When shi'i scholar accepted that it was fai, sunni scholar countered him by telling that distribution of fai was already done in the quran in Surah Hashr verse-7....

ما أفاء الله على رسوله من أهل القرى فلله وللرسول ولذي القربى واليتامى والمساكين وابن السبيل