Allah Jogs : need answer

[salafees_mainstream_muslims]

Salam

We read in Fatawa al-Aqida by ibn Uthaimin, page 112:


وأي مانع يمنع من أن نؤمن بأن الله تعالى يأتي هرولة

“What could forbid us from believing that Allah performs jogging?”


If indeed Allah (swt), why does He do it? To refresh? To warm up? Or, does He just jog needlessly?

[Abu Alqamah]

Salam aleykum

Akhi, the atrribute of Harwalah does not mean jogging?

Rather running, and it is established in the Hadith that of someone comes to Allah walking, Allah will run towards him...

And to similar Hadith of Nuzul, Imam Tirmidhi said that Ahlus Sunnah believe in it without asking How, so what is the difference between Nuzul and Harwalah?

[salafees_mainstream_muslims]

wsalam ,brother.

i gave the verse of quran to the person who asked this question:

In surah al-Fajr, Allah Taala said:

21.Nay, but when the earth is ground to atoms, grinding, grinding,
22. And thy Lord shall come with angels, rank on rank,
Would you also mock on this verse? I say: I believe Allah would come on that day. Do you believe in that?



he replied: You have dissociated yourself from those who interpret the Qur'an in the correct manner. And that includes Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal too! Ibn Kathir, in his al-Bidaya wa al-Nihaya [Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-‘Ilmiyya, 1985/1405], Volume 10, page 342 staates that Imam Ahmad interpreted the above-cited verse figuratively to mean:

as meaning ‘His recompense (thawab) shall come’

Now, I ask: Was Imam Ahmad mocking on this verse???

[Qatadah]

asalam alykum

Bro salafis, look through the threads bro bassam zawadi created.

[Um Abdullah M.]

wa alaykum assalam

please check this thread:

Allah's attribute of Majee' and Ityan (coming), and The Claim That Imam Ahmad Made Tawil of It

[Abu Yunus]

Originally Posted by Abu Alqamah

Salam aleykum

Akhi, the atrribute of Harwalah does not mean jogging?

Rather running, and it is established in the Hadith that of someone comes to Allah walking, Allah will run towards him...

And to similar Hadith of Nuzul, Imam Tirmidhi said that Ahlus Sunnah believe in it without asking How, so what is the difference between Nuzul and Harwalah?

As-salamu alaikum.

Before proceeding, is there any evidence from the Salaf that they considered 'Harwalah' to be an Attribute of Allah?

[Um Abdullah M.]

Originally Posted by Abu Yunus

As-salamu alaikum.

Before proceeding, is there any evidence from the Salaf that they considered 'Harwalah' to be an Attribute of Allah?

wa alaykum assalam

From the little research I've done, it seems that it is something disagreed upon by scholars of Sunnah.
Some consider it an attribute and some don't.

wallahu a'lam.

[Abu Yunus]

Originally Posted by Um Abdullah M.

wa alaykum assalam

From the little research I've done, it seems that it is something disagreed upon by scholars of Sunnah.
Some consider it an attribute and some don't.

wallahu a'lam.

As-salamu alaikum.

Do you have the original evidence from the Salaf?

It would be interesting to see what was said by them.

[Bassam Zawadi]

From the little research I've done, it seems that it is something disagreed upon by scholars of Sunnah.

Please do share it, because my heart does not accept the fact that Allah does Hirwalah literally because it clearly appears from the hadeeth that it is something metaphorical.

From the little research i've done http://www.ahlalhdeeth.cc/vbe/showthread.php?t=4275 I thought that there was a consensus.

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by Bassam Zawadi

Please do share it, because my heart does not accept the fact that Allah does Hirwalah literally because it clearly appears from the hadeeth that it is something metaphorical.

From the little research i've done http://www.ahlalhdeeth.cc/vbe/showthread.php?t=4275 I thought that there was a consensus.

it may appear that that which you said (that it is metaphorical) is the dhaair of the hadeeth and Allah knows best.

[Um Abdullah M.]

Originally Posted by al-boriqee

it may appear that that which you said (that it is metaphorical) is the dhaair of the hadeeth and Allah knows best.

yes, that is the dhahir of the hadith.

shaikh Ibn Uthaimin rahimahullah said in sharh aqeedah as safariniya that this is not one of the attributes that there is clear evidence for or not something yaqini or something like that, and that there is disagreement regarding it.

As for whom from the Salaf affirmed it, I found someone in the Arabic multaqa saying that their were 2 or 3 who affirmed it, but he only mentioned names with sources but I searched in one of the sources but couldn't find it, so I need the exact statment of theirs and which tahqiq he got it from.

Until then, I don't have any statments from the righteous Salaf affirming this attribute.

[Bassam Zawadi]

Sister, I quoted Al Daarimi in his rebuttal to al Marisi http://www.ahlalhdeeth.cc/vbe/showthread.php?t=4275 He cites a consensus.

I need to see someone from the Salaf not take it literally to relax my mind.

[Um Abdullah M.]

Originally Posted by Bassam Zawadi

Sister, I quoted Al Daarimi in his rebuttal to al Marisi http://www.ahlalhdeeth.cc/vbe/showthread.php?t=4275 He cites a consensus.

I need to see someone from the Salaf not take it literally to relax my mind.

In regards to the statment by Imam Darimi, there was a long discussion about it in majles alukah, and it seems there is some doubt that it is his, it isn't clear to me what the conclusion is.

The discussion is here:
http://majles.alukah.net/showthread.php?t=16248



And here is what sh. Ibn Uthaimin said regarding the explanation of the hadith in his fatawa:

وعلى هذا فنؤمن بأن الله تعالى يتقرب من عبده المتقرب إليه كما يشاء ويأتي هرولة لمن أتى إليه يمشي كما يشاء من غير تكييف ولا تمثيل وليس في ذلك ما ينافي كمال الله عز وجل.
وذهب بعض العلماء من أهل السنة إلى أن قوله: " أتيته هرولة " يراد به سرعة قبول الله تعالى وإقباله على العبد المتقرب إليه المتوجه بقلبه وجوراحه إلى ربه وقال : إن هذا هو ظاهر اللفظ بدليل أن الله تعالى قال: " ومن أتاني يمشي" . ومن المعلوم أن طالب الوصول إلى الله لا يطلبه بالمشي فقط بل يطلبه تارة بالمشي كالسير إلى المساجد، والمشاعر، والجهاد، ونحوها، وتارة بالركوع والسجود ونحوهما، فعلم بذلك أن المراد بذلك كيفية طلب الوصول إلى الله تعالى، وأن الله تعالى يجازي الطالب بأعظم من عمله وأفضل. وإذا كان هذا ظاهر اللفظ بالقرينة الشرعية المفهومة من سياقه لم يكن تفسيره بذلك تأويلاً ولا صرفاً له عن ظاهره والله أعلم.


And here is his statment that I mentioned in my previous post, from his sharh of aqeedah as-safirinia:


وكل هذه من العقائد ، والقول : بأن ( العقيدة ليس فيها خلاف على الإطلاق ) غير صحيح ،
فيه من مسائل العقيدة ما يعمل فيه الإنسان بالظن ،
مثلاً : في قوله تعالى : ( من تقرب إلي شبراً تقربت منه ذراعاً ) [128] ، لا يجزم الإنسان بأن المراد القرب الحسي ، فإن الإنسان لا شك ينقدح في ذهنه أن المراد بذلك القرب المعنوي ،
( من أتاني يمشي أتيته هرولة ) ، هذا أيضاً لا يجزم الإنسان بأن الله يمشي مشياً حقيقياً هرولة ، ينقدح في ذهنه أن المراد الإسراع في إثابته وأن الله تعالى إلى الإثابة أسرع من الإنسان إلى العمل ،
ولهذا اختلف علماء أهل السنة في هذه المسألة هل هو هذا أو هذا ؟
فأنت إذا قلت هذا أو هذا لست تتيقنه كما تتيقن نزول الله عز وجل الذي قال فيه الرسول عليه الصلاة والسلام : ( ينزل ربنا إلى السماء الدنيا ) [129] هذا لا يشك فيه الإنسان أنه نزول حقيقي ،
وكما في قوله : { استوى على العرش } ( الأعراف 54 ) ، لا يشك الإنسان أنه استواء حقيقي ،
فالحاصل : أن مسائل العقيدة ليست كلها مما لا بد فيه من اليقين ،
لأن اليقين أو الظن حسب تجاذب الأدلة وتجاذب الأدلة حسب فهم الإنسان وعلمه ،
قد يكون هذان الدليلان متجاذبين عند شخص ، ولكن عند شخص آخر ليس بينهما تجاذب إطلاقاً وقد اتضح عنده أن هذا له وجه وهذا له وجه ،
فمثل هذا الأخير ليس عنده إشكال في المسألة بل عنده يقين ، والأول يكون عنده إشكال ،
وإذا رجّح أحد الطرفين فإنما يرجحه بغلبة الظن ،

[Abu Yunus]

As-salamu alaikum.

Is the one who affirms ‘Harwalah’ as an Attribute a "Mujassim"?

Is the one who denies ‘Harwalah’ as an Attribute a "Jahmi Mu’attil"?

[Bassam Zawadi]

hamdillah for the difference of opinion, but I still wanna see statements from the Salaf on this because for now I only have Al Daarimis.

[Salamz]

Originally Posted by Um Abdullah M.

In regards to the statment by Imam Darimi, there was a long discussion about it in majles alukah, and it seems there is some doubt that it is his, it isn't clear to me what the conclusion is.

The discussion is here:
http://majles.alukah.net/showthread.php?t=16248

One of the contributors in that discussion (عبد الرحيم السني) puts forward a strong case in a number of posts that these are not al Darimi's words and gives an explanation for 'harwala' from some of Salaf such as al Tirmidhi and Ibn Qutayba.

Like brother Bassam, I have always understood the hadith metaphorically given that it says...

"... and if he comes one span nearer to Me, I go one cubit nearer to him; and if he comes one cubit nearer to Me, I go a distance of two outstretched arms [or 'an arm's length' or 'a fathom' as in some translations] nearer to him; and if he comes to Me walking, I go to him running." (Bukhari 9:502)

... and our drawing closer to Allah is not by physically walking to him but by acts of piety and obedience as per another Qudsi hadith also in Bukhari (8:509):

وما تقرب إلي عبدي بشيء أحب إلي مما افترضت عليه، وما يزال عبدي يتقرب إلي بالنوافل حتى أحبه

"And My servant does not draw near to Me with anything more loved to Me than with what I have enjoined upon him. And My servant continues to draw near to me with nawafil deeds until I love him..."

So if this aspect of the hadith can be understood metaphorically, then perhaps so should the part mentioning 'harwala'.

Unless, that is, we can understand words such as "if he comes to Me walking" literally to mean walking to the mosque, making tawaf or walking/running between Safa and Marwa etc., all of which constitue physical acts of obedience to draw nearer to Allah. But then that perhaps limits the scope of the hadith.

And Allah knows best.

[Bassam Zawadi]

Thanks for pointing that out brother Salamz, I'm gonna save the quotes here just in case that link goes dead:

وقال الإمام ابن قتيبة-رحمه الله تعالى- في تأويل مختلف الحديث ص327 بعد هذا الحديث : "ونحن نقول إن هذا تمثيل وتشبيه، وإنما أراد من أتانـي مسرعاً بالطاعة، أتيته بالثواب أسرع من أتيانه، فكنى عن ذلك بالمشي وبالهرولة، كما يقال فلان موضع في الضلال – والإيضاع : سير سريع- لا يراد به أنه يسير ذلك السير، وإنما يُراد أنه يسرع إلى الضلال، فكنى بالوضع عن الإسراع.



فقد قال الإمام الترمذي -رحمه الله تعالى- في الجامع الكبير 5/554 بعد هذا الحديث : "ويروى عن الأعمش في تفسير هذا الحديث : من تقرب إليّ شبراً تقربت منه ذراعاً، يعني بالمغفرة والرحمة، وهكذا فسر بعض أهل العلم هذا الحديث قالوا : إنما معناه يقول : إذا تقرب إليَّ العبد بطاعتي وبما أمرت تُسارِعُ إليه مغفرتي ورحمتي(24) ".

[Abu Yunus]

Originally Posted by Um Abdullah M.

wa alaykum assalam

From the little research I've done, it seems that it is something disagreed upon by scholars of Sunnah.
Some consider it an attribute and some don't.

wallahu a'lam.

As-salamu alaikum.

If there is disagreement on this issue, what is to prevent disagreement on Attributes such as 'Yad' and 'Wajh'?

[Muhammad Salman]

^Wa'alaykum As-Salam

brother, the disagreement by the Salaf is not whether to accept the Sifaat or not. The disagreement is whether the ayaat are among the Sifaat or not. In some cases, the Salaf differed and their difference is not based on random thing, it is based on the dhahir of the ayaat. For the ayah on "Yad", there is no room for disagreement. btw the Salaf differed on "Wajh"

[al-boriqee]

Originally Posted by islamiclife

^Wa'alaykum As-Salam

brother, the disagreement by the Salaf is not whether to accept the Sifaat or not. The disagreement is whether the ayaat are among the Sifaat or not. In some cases, the Salaf differed and their difference is not based on random thing, it is based on the dhahir of the ayaat. For the ayah on "Yad", there is no room for disagreement. btw the Salaf differed on "Wajh"

actually, the salaf did not differ on wajh, what they differed on was ayaahs pertaining to wajh, because the other meaning of wajh is "direction" or angle and is employed in some speech to mean the viewpoint of someone as well.

so when tabari and others made t'awil of the ayaah ".....wherever you turn, there is the Face of your Lord" the ayaah here is clearly speaking about direction and not about the actual Attribute of Wajh. That means that their t'awil was not a ta'wil in accordance to the wishes of ash'aris.

anyways, what you stated was perfectly stated

the disagreement by the Salaf is not whether to accept the Sifaat or not. The disagreement is whether the ayaat are among the Sifaat or not.