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  #1  
Old 10-13-2009, 05:23 AM
seekthetruth seekthetruth is offline
 
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Default Sheikh Ibn Taymiyya: Allah descends in the East first, then in the West?

asalamu alaikom wa rahmat Allahi wa barakatu.

I saw this on Islam-qa:

Ibn Taymiyya said:
"The correct view is that He descends and that He does not vacate the Throne. A person's soul remains attached to his body night and day until he dies, but when he is asleep it ascends… It was said, night varies, and the last third of the night comes sooner in the east than in the west, so the descent of Allaah to the lowest heaven, of which His Messenger spoke, happens in the east first and then in the west...”
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/12290


Did sheikh ibn Taymiyya really say that?
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  #2  
Old 10-13-2009, 08:03 AM
*Abdurrahman* *Abdurrahman* is offline
 
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akhi what is your problem with this sentence?
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  #3  
Old 10-13-2009, 08:52 AM
rizwan rizwan is offline
 
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I guess one saying comes to mind, IN A MANNER THAT BEFITS HIS MAJESTY,

no Kayfiyah
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  #4  
Old 10-13-2009, 01:31 PM
Usool as-Sunnah Usool as-Sunnah is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seekthetruth View Post
It was said, night varies, and the last third ....
I think that when the phrase قيل or "It was said" is uttered, it means the scholar is quoting something weak or that they disagree with. Maybe someone with more knowledge can come and point out if this is the case here, because Shaykh al-Munajjid seems to be quoting it as if he is agreeing with the statement.

والله أعلم
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  #5  
Old 10-13-2009, 08:02 PM
seekthetruth seekthetruth is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Abdurrahman* View Post
akhi what is your problem with this sentence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rizwan View Post
I guess one saying comes to mind, IN A MANNER THAT BEFITS HIS MAJESTY,

no Kayfiyah
This would be going into the kayfiyah, it is also affirming something for Allah s.w.t that Allah s.w.t didn't affirm for himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Usool as-Sunnah View Post
I think that when the phrase قيل or "It was said" is uttered, it means the scholar is quoting something weak or that they disagree with. Maybe someone with more knowledge can come and point out if this is the case here, because Shaykh al-Munajjid seems to be quoting it as if he is agreeing with the statement.

والله أعلم
^ that's all I could think of. That the sheikh is mentioning an opinion he disagrees with, because he said "it was said". However if it is his own opinion then I disagree with it. SubhanAllah, no scholar is infallible...we should remember that. So inshallah someone knows if it was his own opinion or he was mentioning anothers opinion.
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  #6  
Old 10-13-2009, 08:49 PM
ummeesa ummeesa is offline
 
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I hope I'm not out of line here because I don't have any proof on hand to back me up, but I don't see what is problematic about this. The way I understand it is that since the last third of the night occurs in the east before it does in the west, it is implicitly understood that Allah also descends in the east before He does in the west. It is not going into kayfiyyah because it is only elucidating the reality that the last third of the night happens at different times in the different parts of the world.

Allahu a'alam.
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  #7  
Old 10-14-2009, 11:22 AM
Mahmoud Al-Misri Mahmoud Al-Misri is offline
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Wa Alaikum Al Salam wa Rahmat Allah wa Barakatuh
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekthetruth View Post
Did sheikh ibn Taymiyya really say that?
Here is the full Arabic text from Majmou' Al-Fatawa of Shaykh Al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah:
Quote:
والصواب : قول " السلف " : أنه ينزل ولا يخلو منه العرش وروح العبد في بدنه لا تزال ليلا ونهارا إلى أن يموت ووقت النوم تعرج وقد تسجد تحت العرش وهي لم تفارق جسده . وكذلك أقرب ما يكون من ربه وهو ساجد وروحه في بدنه وأحكام الأرواح مخالف لأحكام الأبدان فكيف بالملائكة فكيف برب العالمين . والليل يختلف : فيكون ثلث الليل بالمشرق قبل ثلثه بالمغرب ونزوله الذي أخبر به رسوله إلى سماء هؤلاء في ثلث ليلهم وإلى سماء هؤلاء في ثلث ليلهم . لا يشغله شأن عن شأن وكذلك سبحانه لا يشغله سمع عن سمع . ولا تغلطه المسائل ؛ بل هو سبحانه يكلم العباد يوم القيامة ويحاسبهم لا يشغله هذا عن هذا . وقد قيل لابن عباس : كيف يكلمهم يوم القيامة كلهم في ساعة واحدة ؟ قال : كما يرزقهم كلهم في ساعة واحدة .
Quote:
I think that when the phrase قيل or "It was said" is uttered, it means the scholar is quoting something weak or that they disagree with.
True, it is as the sister said this phrase is used as an indication to something weak or something that one disagrees with, however in this case I think it appears to be a mistake in the translation ... since the Arabic text does not have the words: "It was said".
Quote:
This would be going into the kayfiyah,
No it is not, it is just affirming the meaning of the tradition which came from Prophet Muhammad ... you can see him negating what some did from attempting to go into the Kayfiyah earlier on in the fatwa.
Quote:
it is also affirming something for Allah s.w.t that Allah s.w.t didn't affirm for himself.
No it does not, as Sr. Umm Eesa explains ... it affirms for Allah what his Messenger affirmed for him ... which is the Nuzool at the last third of the night.

Here is a similar explanation from Shaykh Al-Uthaymeen, which I hope might help:
Quote:
وهذا الذي يقول : إن الله ينزل إلى السماء الدنيا حين يبقى ثلث الليل الآخر كل ليلة فيلزم من هذا أن يكون كل الليل في السماء الدنيا، لأن الليل يدور على جميع الأرض، فالثلث ينتقل من هذا المكان إلى المكان الآخر.

جوابنا عليه أن نقول: هذا سؤال لم يسأله الصحابة رضوان الله عليهم ولو كان هذا يرد على قلب المؤمن المستسلم لبينه الله ورسوله صلى الله عليه وسلم ونقول : ما دام ثلث الليل الأخير في هذه الجهة باقياً فالنزول فيها محقق، ومتى انتهى الليل انتفى النزول ونحن لا ندرك كيفية نزول الله ولا نحيط به علماً ونعلم أنه سبحانه ليس كمثله شيء، وعلينا أن نستسلم وأن نقول: سمعنا، وامنا، واتبعنا، وأطعنا هذه وظيفتنا.

من فتاوى الشيخ ابن عثيمين رحمه الله
And Allah knows best
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  #8  
Old 10-15-2009, 10:04 AM
strive4jannah strive4jannah is offline
 
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I managed to find the following post from another forum regarding this topic:

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Shaykh ul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah gives a lengthy explanation of this - which is another of the doubts of the Jahmiyyah - in his book "Sharh Hadeeth in-Nuzool", towards the end of it (p.320 onwards), and the essence of it is is that this question only arises when it is presumed that the kaifiyyah of Allaah's Descent is like the descent of created beings, for when you presume that, then this doubt arises. So as Imaam Malik said, regarding Istiwaa and as Abu Ja'far at-Tirmidhi (the faqih of Bagdhad, d. 295H) said,as mentioned by ad-Dhahabi in al-Uluww (p. 231), regarding the nuzool:

Quote:
Quote: the Nuzool is ma'qool (understood), and the kayf is majhool (unknown), to have faith in it is obligatory and asking about it is an innovation.
And in summary, we hold that:

- Allaah descends without Him leaving the Throne, He remains above the Throne

- Allaah descends without coming under or beneath the heaven - and as the Salaf said to the Jahmiyyah who raised such doubts in relation to the nuzool, "We believe in a Lord who does whatever He wills"

- To all people in all parts of the earth, alongside the variation in the night and day, Allaah's descent is for them during the last third of their night - and we are not able to understand the kaifiyyah of that - just like we are not able to understand the kaifiyyah of how Allaah will do the hisaab (accounting) of all the people at the same time.

Ibn Taymiyyah says, "As for the nuzool that is not of the type of the nuzool of the (created) bodies of the servants, then it is not impossible that it occurs at the same time for a great number of the creation ... and this is like His reckoning of His servants on the Day of Judgement, He will reckon all of them within a single hour, and all of them will be alone with Him, just like a man is alone with the moon on a clear night, and He will make him affirm his sins, and that one being reckoned will not see that He is reckoning others besides him" (p.334)

And then Ibn Taymiyyah brings ahaadeeth in this regard, and he also mentions the hadeeth of Allaah responding ot the servant when he recites al-Faatihah in the prayer, so Allaah says, "My servant praised me" and so on, and this is to every one who prays, at the same time, and likewise Allaah sees everyone all at the same time, and he provides for everyone all at the same time, so likewise, the nuzool - if we remove that presumption of "kayf" that is prohibited which is that the nuzool is like that of the created bodies - then we are not subject to this doubt, and then we are able to affirm it for Allaah without tashbeeh and tamtheel and without any caution in that.


And in all of this there is sufficiency for the believer who affirms what Allaah affirmed for Himself without takyeef and without ta'teel and without tamtheel.

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