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  #1  
Old 12-06-2009, 11:31 AM
Efendi Efendi is offline
 
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Default Army coming from Khorasan with black flags

Question: Are the hadīth about an army coming from Khorasan with black flags and entering Jerusalem authentic?

Answered by Sheikh Salman al-Oadah

The hadīth about the army with black banners coming out of Khorasan has two chains of transmission, but both are weak and cannot be authenticated. If a Muslim believes in this hadīth, he believes in something false. Anyone who cares about his religion and belief should avoid heading towards falsehood.

The hadīth is related on the authority of Thawbān that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “If you see the black banners coming from the direction of Khurasān, then go to them, even if you have to crawl, because among them will be Allah’s Caliph the Mahdī.” [Related by al-Hākim (8572) and Ahmad (22387)]

All the chains of transmission for this hadīth are weak and inauthentic, though some people have been overly lenient about it and declared it authentic by virtue of the many chains of transmission that it has.

Some people have used this hadīth to support their claim that the Mahdī is from the family of al-Abbās and that the Mahdī is from of the Abbasid dynasty. There were Abbasid Caliphs who went by the name al-Mahdī.

The banners of the Abbasid State were black. It is not hard to see how this weak hadīth might have been fabricated or at least tampered with to support the Abbasid cause.

http://www.islamtoday.com/show_detai...main_cat_id=11
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  #2  
Old 12-06-2009, 12:26 PM
rizwan rizwan is offline
 
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Salaam. This hadeeth is also used by people of Afghan heritage to claim that the Afghan people will be the Army. They then use it to up their nationalistic beliefs. I had a conversation about this subject with a brother who said khorosan means the Taliban.

I explained to this brother than without knowing what region(s) khorasan comprised at the time if the prophet then we would have to take khorosan for what it is today. Today Khorosan is comprised under 5 countries, Afghanistan,Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, turkmenistan and Iran. I said to him the army could be from any five countries and said that for it to be considered the Taliban was very weak.

Ahki which scholars have declaredit weak. Jazakallah
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  #3  
Old 12-06-2009, 01:19 PM
DefendingSunnah DefendingSunnah is offline
 
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Shaikh Yasir Qadhi Used This Hadith In "Mehdi-Between Fact And Fiction",So I Think It Is An Authentic Hadith And Allah Knows Best
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  #4  
Old 12-06-2009, 01:31 PM
Efendi Efendi is offline
 
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Salam alaikum.

Hakim narrated in his "Mostadrak" and said it's sahih, here from that book:
أخبرنا الحسين بن يعقوب بن يوسف العدل ثنا يحيى بن أبي طالب ثنا عبد الوهاب بن عطاء أنبأ خالد الحذاء عن أبي قلابة عن أبي أسماء عن ثوبان رضى الله تعالى عنه قال إذا رأيتم الرايات السود خرجت من قبل خراسان فأتوها ولو حبوا فإن فيها خليفة الله المهدي هذا حديث صحيح على شرط الشيخين ولم يخرجاه


Salman al-Oadah (as i wrote before) said: "All the chains of transmission for this hadīth are weak and inauthentic".
Sheikhana Al-Albani in "Daif al-jami" (#506) said weak, and said rejected (munkar) in "Tahrij mishkat al-masabih" #5389.
Sheikh Shuayb Arnawut said chain is weak regarding way of transmission in "Musnad" of imam Ahmad (#22441).

Wa Allahu Alam.
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  #5  
Old 12-06-2009, 11:36 PM
MohammadMufti MohammadMufti is offline
 
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I doubt the narration is entirely an Abbasi fabrication, maybe tampering in many of the routes, because there is texts I've seen essentially supporting this claim even from the israeliyat - so unless the Abbasi who fabricated it was a Jew...
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  #6  
Old 12-07-2009, 01:43 AM
DefendingSunnah DefendingSunnah is offline
 
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Yeah I Agree,Maybe Abbasids Made Black Flags ON The Basis Of This Hadeeth And Not The Other Way Around,Either Way,Bro Efendi Has More Proof For Its Weakness Than I Have For Its Strength
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  #7  
Old 12-07-2009, 02:56 AM
rizwan rizwan is offline
 
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Indeed he does. As I said khorasan is not one region but five and therefore the Army of Imam Mahdhi could be from any of these five regions. Similar Analogy can be made with the Hadeeth of Najd. In the book, Najd karnu shaytan it is is said that Najd could be thirteen different places.
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  #8  
Old 12-07-2009, 03:04 AM
bin_nazir bin_nazir is offline
 
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Salaam,

The hadith has one more aspect in its matn that made me squirm, that it would make a massive massacre of the Arabs, which is weird coz at any rate the majority of the Arabs are going to be Muslims, and if there is a khalifa of Allah amidst that army, then how can such an army make a massive massacre of Muslims itself ?

Can someone please help us find if the massive massacre of the Muslims(arabs) by the army with black banners true or fabricated.

Probably the shia, especially the Iranians, never hated anyone more than the Arabs as they dethroned them from their glory, hence I wont be surprised that this is also weak and a fabrication.

wa salaam
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  #9  
Old 12-07-2009, 03:19 AM
aminn aminn is offline
 
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Quote:
The hadīth is related on the authority of Thawbān that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “If you see the black banners coming from the direction of Khurasān, then go to them, even if you have to crawl, because among them will be Allah’s Caliph the Mahdī.” [Related by al-Hākim (8572) and Ahmad (22387)]

All the chains of transmission for this hadīth are weak and inauthentic, though some people have been overly lenient about it and declared it authentic by virtue of the many chains of transmission that it has.
how about the other ahadith that talks about khurasan. r they too weak? Sheikh only seems to have commented on one hadith..i was wondering if other hadith are authentic or not...

Quote:
A third Hadith recorded by al-Tirmizi , Ibn Majah , Ahmad , al-Hakim and Abu Ya'lah reads: "al-Dajjal (Anti-Christ) will come out from a land called Khurasan and he will be followed by some nations whose people's faces are like a shield due to being round, large and thick, because of the several layers of leather that cover shield.

Islamweb
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  #10  
Old 12-07-2009, 03:36 AM
aminn aminn is offline
 
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Quote:
“Abu Huraira (RA) reported Allah’s Apostle (SAW) saying: You have heard about a city; the one side of which is in the land and the other is in the sea (Constantinople). They said: Allah’s Messenger, Yes. There upon he said: The last hour would come unless seventy thousand persons from Bani Ishaq would attack it. When they would land there, they will neither fight with weapons nor would show arrows but would only say: There is no god but Allah and Allah is the Greatest, that one side of it would fall. Thaur (one of the narrators) said: I think that he said: The part by the side of the ocean. Then they would say for the second time: There is no god but Allah and Allah is the Greatest that the second side would also fall, and they would say: There is no god but Allah and Allah is the Greatest, that the gates would be opened for them and they would enter therein and, they would be collecting spoils of war and distributing them amongst themselves that a noise would be heard and it would be said: Verily, Dajjal has come. And thus they would everything there and would turn to him.”

Book 041, Number 6979, Sahih Muslim
Even this hadith of muslim although might not explicitly talk about khurasan, context surely leans towards it which can be used in its support..
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  #11  
Old 12-07-2009, 04:20 AM
MohammadMufti MohammadMufti is offline
 
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Quote:
A third Hadith recorded by al-Tirmizi , Ibn Majah , Ahmad , al-Hakim and Abu Ya'lah reads: "al-Dajjal (Anti-Christ) will come out from a land called Khurasan and he will be followed by some nations whose people's faces are like a shield due to being round, large and thick, because of the several layers of leather that cover shield.
There is two different narrations similar to parts of this one you brought.

(a) One is proven from Imaam Muslim (rah), about 70,000 Jews following Dajjal from Isfahan (so the part of Khorasan is specified, and it's in modern Iran).

(b) The hadeeth about the invasions by the Turks (i.e. the Tartars, not Turkish) and this has already taken place in the time of Imaam Nawawi (rah) as I read in the book of Mohammad b. Bayyumi where he excerpted a commentary from Imaam Nawawi (rah) who mentioned the exact similarity in physical features of the Tartars with that which the Prophet (saw) forewarned us.

In any case, this is the opposite of the narrations concerning Mehdi (rah) from Khurasan so I can't see how they could be used to elevate one another. Imaam Suyuti (rah) wrote a book the Mehdi (rah) where he compiled numerous (I recall nearly 200) narrations about the Mehdi (rah) while omitting asanid but giving sources. In this book, the number of traditions about the army with black banners is immeasurable, but many of these can probably have similar people in asanid. But at the same time, the number of faulty narrations that he (rah) brought light to was equally immeasurable. So I can see where the scholars who don't raise this narration are coming from.

Quote:
The hadith has one more aspect in its matn that made me squirm, that it would make a massive massacre of the Arabs, which is weird coz at any rate the majority of the Arabs are going to be Muslims, and if there is a khalifa of Allah amidst that army, then how can such an army make a massive massacre of Muslims itself ?
There's many routes for it, all of them are weak individually, and several of them are garbage. The narration you mentioned could very well be from the latter or maybe not.
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  #12  
Old 05-24-2012, 04:35 AM
abumuslimkhurasani abumuslimkhurasani is offline
 
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+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
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  #13  
Old 05-28-2012, 07:10 AM
ISLAMDEFENDER ISLAMDEFENDER is offline
 
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The Hadith
a) Marfu Hadith (Saying of Prophet peace be upon him)
Thawban (May Allah be pleased with him) narrated, "The Prophet(Sal Allah hu alayhe wasallam) said:
: ( يقتيل عند كنزكم ثلاثة كلهم ابن خليفة . ثم لا يصير إلى واحد منهم . ثم نطلع الرايات السود من قبل المشرق . فيقتلونكم قتلا لم يقتله قوم )
ثم ذكر شيئا لا أحفظه . فقال فإذا رأيتموه فبايعوه ولو حبوا على الثلج . فإنه خليفة الله المهدي
"Three men will be killed at the place where your treasure is. Each of them will be the son of a Khalifah, and none of them will get hold of the treasure. Then black banners will come out of the east...' If you see him, go and give him your allegiance, even if you have to crawl over ice, because he is the Khalifah of Allah, the Mahdi."[Ibn Majah no:4084]
Source: http://hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx...ID=35&PID=7508 )

b) Moquf Rout (saying of Companion)
Thawban said:
إذا رأيتم الرايات السود خرجت من قبل خراسان فأتوها ولو حبوا ، فإن فيها خليفة الله المهدي "
If you see the black flags coming from Khurasan then go there even if you have to crawl because there is the Khalifah of Allah, the Mahdi."[Mustadrak al Hakim hadeeth no: 8578, Behaqi in Dalail an-Nabuwwah 6/516].Source:http://www.islamweb.net/newlibrary/d..._no=74&ID=8409

Authentications
a) Imam al-Bazzar said after narrating،
وإسناده إسناد صحيح .
Chain is authentic.

b) Imam Hakim said after narrating:"
هذا حديث صحيح على شرط الشيخين
.This hadeeth is authentic on the criteria of Shaykhayn (Bukhari and Muslim)(end quote)
.
c) Ibn Katheer said
" وهذا إسناد قوي صحيح .This chain is powerful authentic
.
d) Qurtubee authenticated [Tadhkirah 1201]
.
e) Buseri authenticated [Misbah az-Zajjaj 3/263]
.
f) Sindee said
كذا إسناده صحيح رجاله ثقات ورواه الحاكم في المستدرك وقال : صحيح على شرط الشيخين .
Chain is authentic Narrators are trustworthy, narrated by al Hakim in Mustadrak and said Authentic on the criteria of Shaykhayn(Bukhari and Muslim)[Zawaid e Ibne Majah under this hadeeth]
.
g) Hamood at taweejari authenticated [Ittehaaf al Jamah bimaja fi al Fitan wal Malahum wa Sharaait as-Sa`ah 2/187]
.
h) Shaykh Zubair Ali Zai said the marfu rout is weak because of Sufiyan thawri who is mudallis and narrating from (an), but he said regarding the moquf rout
.
The chain of this rout is Hasan Lidhatihi and this is Marfu in hukam.[Al Hadith no: 80 page no: 6]

He also said "Authenticated by Buseri, and al-Hakim authenticated on the criteria of Shaykhayn (Bukhari and Muslim) 4/463,364 and 502. Ad-Dahabee agreed with him, Authenticated by Ibn Katheer[Notes of Ibn Majah hadeeth no: 4084]

see also: http://www.islamqa.com/ar/ref/136537

Hafiz Ibn Katheer said regarding this hadeeth

" وهذه الرايات السود ليست هي التي أقبل بها أبو مسلم الخراساني فاستلب بها دولة بني أمية في سنة اثنتين وثلاثين ومائة ، بل رايات سود أخر تأتي بصحبة المهدي ، وهو محمد بن عبد الله العلوي الفاطمي الحسني رضي الله عنه ، يصلحه الله في ليلة ؛ أي : يتوب عليه ويوفقه ويفهمه ويرشده ، بعد أن لم يكن كذلك ، ويؤيده بناس من أهل المشرق ينصرونه ويقيمون سلطانه ويشدون أركانه ، وتكون راياتهم سوداء أيضاً "

And these black flags are not the one which Abu Muslim Al Khurasanin brought it, through which the kingdom of Banu Umayya was taken away/conquered in 132 Hijri. but these black flags would be brought by Imam Mehdi and he is Muhammad bin Abdullah Al Alawai Alfatmi Alhasani (ra) will be guided by Allah in one night. Which means he will be forgiven and will be successful and will be given understanding and will be guided even though he wasn't like that before. And the people of Mashriq will back him up and will help him and will establish his kingdom and will make the pillars strong and their flag would be black.[Al Nihaya wal Fitan al Malahum by Ibn Katheer Page 44]
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Old 06-05-2012, 01:09 PM
abumuslimkhurasani abumuslimkhurasani is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISLAMDEFENDER View Post
And these black flags are not the one which Abu Muslim Al Khurasanin brought it, through which the kingdom of Banu Umayya was taken away/conquered in 132 Hijri. but these black flags would be brought by Imam Mehdi and he is Muhammad bin Abdullah Al Alawai Alfatmi Alhasani (ra) will be guided by Allah in one night. Which means he will be forgiven and will be successful and will be given understanding and will be guided even though he wasn't like that before. And the people of Mashriq will back him up and will help him and will establish his kingdom and will make the pillars strong and their flag would be black.[Al Nihaya wal Fitan al Malahum by Ibn Katheer Page 44]
You are mistaken brother. You have to read all hadith about the black banners. There are 4 hadith where is told the mahdi is among them, 3 narrated by thwaban ra and 1 by masood ra.

I have one hadith translated in turkish where thawban says "soon black banners will come out from khurasan, the mahdi is among them".

298/2. Yakında size Horasan tarafından siyah bayraklılar gelecek. Kar üzerinde emekleyerek olsa da onlara iltihak ediniz! Zira onların arasındra Allah'ın halifesi Mehdi (AS) vardır. (Hz. Sevban RA)

Read al arf al- wardi. Read all hadith about Shuayb ibn Salih and Banu Hashim.
The messenger did not said one time the mahdi is among them.


Al Arf al-Wardi by Imam Suyuti

On the contrary the messenger said:

And at-Tabarani in al-Awsat narrated from Ibn 'Umar [radhiyallahu 'anhuma]:
"The Messenger of Allah [sallallahu 'alayhi wa-sallam] was sitting with a group of the Muhajirun and Ansar. 'Ali ibn Abi Talib was on his left, and al-'Abbas was on his right, when an argument broke out
between al-'Abbas and a man from the Ansar, and the Ansari spoke harshly to al-'Abbas. So the Prophet [sallallahu 'alayhi wa-sallam] took hold of the hand of al-'Abbas and the hand of 'Ali, and said:
"There will come from the loins of this one [i.e. al-'Abbas] a tribe who will fill the earth will tyranny and oppression. And there will come from the loins of this one [i.e. 'Ali] a tribe who will fill the earth with
equity and justice. So when you see that, then you must join the Tamimi youth. For he will come from the east, and he will be the bearer of the Mahdi's banner."


With tamimi youth is meant Shuayb ibn salih. He will lead the black banners
til the mahdi appears in makkah with the banner uqab.

This point was made clear in the abouve video, also the banner uqab is today kept in Istanbul.

This is the only hadith that the messenger said you must join the black banners (in the endtimes), because he will be the bearer of the mahdi“s banner and not the mahdi is among them.

Ibn Katheer said about this hadiths (mahdi among them):

Al-Hafidh 'Imad ad-Din ibn Kathir said: "In this is an indication of the rule of Banul-'Abbas, and in it is a proof that the Mahdi will be after the state of Banul-'Abbas, and he will be from the Ahl al-Bayt, from the descendents of Fatimah, the daughter of the Messenger of Allah [sallallahu 'alayhi a-sallam], then from the children of al-Hasan and al-Husayn."

Its quite clear these hadiths reffers to abu muslim al khurasani and his turkish forces.
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Old 06-05-2012, 02:21 PM
abumuslimkhurasani abumuslimkhurasani is offline
 
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Ibn Katheer made the same mistake and today is generally believed the mahdi will be among the black banners of khurasan.

And Ibn Abi Shaybah, Ahmad, Abu Dawud, Abu Ya'la and at-Tabarani in al-Kabir, from UmmSalamah [radhiyallahu 'anha] from the Prophet [sallallahu 'alayhi wa-sallam] that he said:
"There will be conflict with the death of a khalifah. Then a man from the people of al-Madinah will come out, fleeing to Makkah. A group of men from the people of Makkah will come to him and bring him out by force, and give the bay'ah to him between ar-Rukn and al-Maqam.

The mahdi can not be one time from the people of medinah and at the same time from Khorasan, this is imposible.

Narrated by ibn Amr, who said: "… The Messenger of Allah (saas) said, 'Six things will happen to this community: … The sixth is the conquest of medina.' I asked, 'O Messenger of Allah, which medina?' He said, 'Constantinople [Istanbul].'" [This is the spiritual conquest of Istanbul by Hazrat Mahdi (as).] (Al-Barzanji, Al-Isha'ah li-ashrat al-sa'ah, p. 204; Ahmad Diya ad-Din al-Kamushkhanawi, Ramuz al-Ahadith 1/296)

The word medina is used by the Prophet (saas) in this hadith in the sense of a great city in order to refer to Istanbul. Istanbul did not exist at the time of the prophet (saas) so he used the word medinah for it. When he was asked which medinah he repiled constantinople.

Another hadith reveals that Hazrat Mahdi (as) will emerge from the city that contains the sacred relics, including the sacred banner of our Prophet (saas). The banner and other sacred relics of the Prophet (saas) are currently kept in a special section of Istanbul’s Topkapi Palace.

As you see all the hadiths are in harmony. All the roads lead to Istanbul and turkey.
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  #16  
Old 12-26-2013, 10:18 PM
abumuslimkhurasani abumuslimkhurasani is offline
 
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Imam Suyuti has rate the below hadiths as authentic.

And Ahmad, at-Tirmidhi and Nu'aym ibn Hammad narrated from Abu Hurayrah [radhiyallahu 'anhu] that he said: "The Messenger of Allah [sallallahu 'alayhi wa-sallam] said:

"Black banners will come out of Khurasan, and nothing will stop them, until they are raised in Ayliya' [i.e. Bayt al-Maqdis]."

Ibn Kathir said: "These banners are not those of Abu Muslim al-Khurasani who came and overthrew the state of Banu Umayyah in the year 132. Rather, they are other banners that will come in the future, accompanied by the Mahdi."

The hadith has been fullfilled with the ottoman turks when Selim I conquered palestine in 1517. Ibn Kathir lived during the 14th century when the ottomans were living in anatolia. The black banners that will come in the future do not liberate Jerusalem according to weak hadiths. Most of them are imprisoned in al kufah and Shuayb ibn Salih is going to hide in Bayt al-Maqdis.



And Ibn Abi Shaybah, Nu'aym ibn Hammad in al-Fitan, Ibn Majah and Abu Nu'aym narrated from Ibn Mas'ud [radhiyallahu 'anhu] that he said:
"Once we were with the Messenger of Allah [sallallahu 'alayhi wa-sallam], when a group of youths from Banu Hashim approached. When the Prophet [sallallahu 'alayhi wa-sallam] saw them, his eyes filled with tears and his colour changed.
He [i.e. Ibn Mas'ud] said: "I said: "We see in your face something that worries us." So he said:
"We, the Ahl al-Bayt, are a people for whom Allah has chosen the hereafter over this world. And my household after me will face trials, banishment and pursuit, until a people from the east come with black banners, and they will ask for what is due, but not be given it. So they will fight and be victorious, and be given what they asked for. But they will not accept it from them until they hand it over to a man from my household, who will fill it [i.e. the earth] with equity, as they had filled it with tyranny. So whoever among you reaches that time, then let him go to them, even if he must crawl over ice, for he is the Mahdi."


Al-Hafidh 'Imad ad-Din ibn Kathir said: "In this is an indication of the rule of Banul-'Abbas, and in it is a proof that the Mahdi will be after the state of Banul-'Abbas, and he will be from the Ahl al-Bayt, from the descendents of Fatimah, the daughter of the Messenger of Allah [sallallahu 'alayhi wa-sallam], then from the children of al-Hasan and al-Husayn."

This hadith is reffering to the banner uqab and the trusted relics of the prophet sallallahu 'alayhi wa-sallam which the turks are holding and as the hadith states they will hand it over to the Mahdi.

If the Abbasid“s would have fabricated them, they would mention Abu Muslim Khurasani, who started the rebellion againts the Ummayad dynasty and the hadiths would not came true.
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